A Couple of Jack Johnson questions

[Hawkins]

Why did Jack Johnson never defend his title against Sam Langford? From the stories I've heard/read Johnson defeated Langford in an earlier bout. It was said that Johnson defeated Langford rather handily. Yet years later, as champion, Johnson seemingly wanted no part of Langford. Some have said that Johnson claimed he could only make money against white fighters was why he never faced a black challenger, but I've come to believe that maybe Johnson barely escaped the earlier Langford bout with a victory. Hence his reluctance to face him as champion. Does anyone have information about this?

Second - was the Johnson/Ketchel bout really an exhibition? From the footage I've seen it looks like anything but. Look kind of like a hard contested bout. Was Johnson claims that this was an exhibition fight and that Ketchel caught him off guard and knocked him down his way of explaining the reason he was put on his butt by a middleweight? Was he just trying to save face?

[phallus]

Why did Jack Johnson never defend his title against Sam Langford? From the stories I've heard/read Johnson defeated Langford in an earlier bout. It was said that Johnson defeated Langford rather handily. Yet years later, as champion, Johnson seemingly wanted no part of Langford. Some have said that Johnson claimed he could only make money against white fighters was why he never faced a black challenger, but I've come to believe that maybe Johnson barely escaped the earlier Langford bout with a victory. Hence his reluctance to face him as champion. Does anyone have information about this?

Second - was the Johnson/Ketchel bout really an exhibition? From the footage I've seen it looks like anything but. Look kind of like a hard contested bout. Was Johnson claims that this was an exhibition fight and that Ketchel caught him off guard and knocked him down his way of explaining the reason he was put on his butt by a middleweight? Was he just trying to save face?

dude, u should probably watch ken burns doc on jack johnson, it might answer some of your questions. i don't know much about the langford fight, but i'll bet that fighting white fighters was a much easier way to make $ than fighting langford again. also, since americans wanted a white champ, the honkies in charge might not have let johnson fight langford again for the title.

i do know about ketchel though, i've seen that film many times. it was an exhibition fight, but ketchel turned it into a real fight, he knew he could knock johnson down and he did, it cost him a few teeth though, and then getting knocked the **** out himself. i have an old boxing book that talks about ketchel, and he didn't let anyone tell him what to do, the guy got killed because he was trying to bang a cowboy's wife, and he was asking her if she wanted to **** right in front of her husband

[Jim Jeffries]

Why did Jack Johnson never defend his title against Sam Langford? From the stories I've heard/read Johnson defeated Langford in an earlier bout. It was said that Johnson defeated Langford rather handily. Yet years later, as champion, Johnson seemingly wanted no part of Langford. Some have said that Johnson claimed he could only make money against white fighters was why he never faced a black challenger, but I've come to believe that maybe Johnson barely escaped the earlier Langford bout with a victory. Hence his reluctance to face him as champion. Does anyone have information about this?

Second - was the Johnson/Ketchel bout really an exhibition? From the footage I've seen it looks like anything but. Look kind of like a hard contested bout. Was Johnson claims that this was an exhibition fight and that Ketchel caught him off guard and knocked him down his way of explaining the reason he was put on his butt by a middleweight? Was he just trying to save face?

Johnson defeated Langford when Langford was a kid and only weighed 154 pounds, he later grew to 180 and I think Johnson wanted no part of him then. Could have been a money thing, but I doubt it, Langford is considered to be the greatest fighter to never win a world championship. He was short at only 5'7", but had a pretty decent reach, with a wingspan of 73". 138 KO's over his career, not too shabby.

[Hawkins]

i do know about ketchel though, i've seen that film many times. it was an exhibition fight, but ketchel turned it into a real fight, he knew he could knock johnson down and he did, it cost him a few teeth though, and then getting knocked the **** out himself. i have an old boxing book that talks about ketchel, and he didn't let anyone tell him what to do, the guy got killed because he was trying to bang a cowboy's wife, and he was asking her if she wanted to **** right in front of her husband

If that was truly an exhibition then those guys didn't really show it. It looked like a legit title fight to me.

[Hawkins]

Johnson defeated Langford when Langford was a kid and only weighed 154 pounds, he later grew to 180 and I think Johnson wanted no part of him then. Could have been a money thing, but I doubt it, Langford is considered to be the greatest fighter to never win a world championship. He was short at only 5'7", but had a pretty decent reach, with a wingspan of 73". 138 KO's over his career, not too shabby.

Yea, I know. It just led me to the conclusion that maybe Langford was a far tougher fight than Jack Johnson led everyone to believe.

[phallus]

If that was truly an exhibition then those guys didn't really show it. It looked like a legit title fight to me.

except that ketchel weighed 30 lbs less than johnson and couldn't take a real heavys power

[duffgun]

i have recently read a jack Johnson autobiography and it says that Johnson had 2 fights with Langford, the first was a proper fight the 2nd was an exabition. and the ketchel fights was a genuine defence of the title although there where rumours that ketchel had been paid of to take a dive.

[LondonRingRules]

Why did Jack Johnson never defend his title against Sam Langford?

** Langford was the prototype Mike Tyson fighter of the day. Whacked out anyone who dared exchange with him. From the time of the Johnson/Langford bout in 1906 until Johnson loses his title to Willard in 1915, little 150 lb Sam grew some major muscle, about 170lbs in his best condition, and compiles a better record than Johnson's entire career record to that point, going, 79-7-11-4ND, 42 KO, an outstanding KO number in the ND era of boxing. That is excluding Sam's 50+ fights before Johnson which was mostly against lightweights and welters where he started his career at.

Now, compare to Johnson's career record before his Willard loss, 70-6-12-6ND, 37 KO, compiled in a career that begins 8 yrs before Sam ever starts boxing. In that 9 yr period between 1906-15, Sam was also 14-2-4-1ND against HOFers. Johnson, for whatever his faults, was not blind or stupid to the tornado that was Sam Langford. Even when broke and hungry on the run in Paris he preferred to take on journeymen Battling Johnson and Moran for small purses rather than risk losing his title for a large purse against Sam or Joe Jeanette, both of whom followed him to Paris in hopes of securing a bout.

Johnson was financed by an English boxing club while chasing Burns in exchange for a guarantee that if he won the title he would return to England and defend against Sam. Johnson broke that contract as well as the contract with his manager after his Burns victory. White hopers paid better was the excuse, but only Jeffries would've paid Johnson more than a Langford bout.

What's funny is that Johnson is lauded as being this great, but against common fighters, Jeffries and Langford did much better than Johnson, who often struggled with some. Papa Jack by Randy Gordon and Unforgivable Blackness by Geoffry Ward are a pair of the best bios on Johnson. The Burns doc was sort of a glossed up, but well worth watching.

Ketchel was a legit title bout. Ketchel was no joke and tried to take off Johnson's head. Johnson was enjoying the size and strength mismatch, but got careless and was dropped by a KO artist. Ketchel made a mistake in not being prepared when Johnson got up, and the final result was the careless heavy prevailed over the careless middleweight.

[Hawkins]

** Langford was the prototype Mike Tyson fighter of the day. Whacked out anyone who dared exchange with him. From the time of the Johnson/Langford bout in 1906 until Johnson loses his title to Willard in 1915, little 150 lb Sam grew some major muscle, about 170lbs in his best condition, and compiles a better record than Johnson's entire career record to that point, going, 79-7-11-4ND, 42 KO, an outstanding KO number in the ND era of boxing. That is excluding Sam's 50+ fights before Johnson which was mostly against lightweights and welters where he started his career at.

Now, compare to Johnson's career record before his Willard loss, 70-6-12-6ND, 37 KO, compiled in a career that begins 8 yrs before Sam ever starts boxing. In that 9 yr period between 1906-15, Sam was also 14-2-4-1ND against HOFers. Johnson, for whatever his faults, was not blind or stupid to the tornado that was Sam Langford. Even when broke and hungry on the run in Paris he preferred to take on journeymen Battling Johnson and Moran for small purses rather than risk losing his title for a large purse against Sam or Joe Jeanette, both of whom followed him to Paris in hopes of securing a bout.

Johnson was financed by an English boxing club while chasing Burns in exchange for a guarantee that if he won the title he would return to England and defend against Sam. Johnson broke that contract as well as the contract with his manager after his Burns victory. White hopers paid better was the excuse, but only Jeffries would've paid Johnson more than a Langford bout.

What's funny is that Johnson is lauded as being this great, but against common fighters, Jeffries and Langford did much better than Johnson, who often struggled with some. Papa Jack by Randy Gordon and Unforgivable Blackness by Geoffry Ward are a pair of the best bios on Johnson. The Burns doc was sort of a glossed up, but well worth watching.

Thats kind of what I thought. From what I've read Johnson liked to ignore certain things that weren't to his liking and add in, or do, whatever he wanted to make himself look better.

Of the two bouts he fought against Langford were they horribly onesided affairs like I've read that Johnson claims? Or did Johnson get lucky to get out with a victory?

Ketchel was a legit title bout. Ketchel was no joke and tried to take off Johnson's head. Johnson was enjoying the size and strength mismatch, but got careless and was dropped by a KO artist. Ketchel made a mistake in not being prepared when Johnson got up, and the final result was the careless heavy prevailed over the careless middleweight.

Well from watching the film of the fight you can clearly see that it's more than an exhibition. I guess Jack had to save face again and claim Ketchel cheated. I mean, how would it look if the heavyweight king was kayoed by a middleweight?

In that film you can clearly see Johnson is hurt when Ketchel knocked him on his butt and from the way it looks he barely makes it up in time. Thats in contrast to his claims that he jumped right up after the knock down. In reality he struggled.

[LondonRingRules]

Of the two bouts he fought against Langford were they horribly onesided affairs like I've read that Johnson claims? Or did Johnson get lucky to get out with a victory?

** Sam's manager put out a false account of that fight claiming Sam got the better of Johnson in hopes of goading Johnson's pride into a rematch.

They only fought once for the record, a 15 rd decision for Johnson on Sam's home turf, so you can't ask for a more convincing win. Sam was KDed in the 6th, but reportedly had Johnson in some trouble afterwards and attempted to fight him outside a bar the next day. Keep in mind that Sam had stepped directly from fighting a series against HOF lightweight Blackburn to HOFer Jeannette only 4 months before the Johnson bout. Johnson was the 3rd heavy Sam ever faced, being 1-1 against Jeannette plus a KO of journeyman Black Fitz.

Never heard of any exhibition between them, but if it occurred it had to have been long after both retired.

Joe Louis and Jack Blackburn hosted Sam in one of their training camps and made him a King. They ran Johnson off when he visited. Jeannette and Harry Wills regarded Langford as the best heavy of this era and both made attempts to get Johnson into the ring also.