Thoughts on Roy Jones Jr. Legacy

[The Old LefHook]

Roy was the Meadowlark Lemon of boxing. The Globetrotters always look so incredible against those local high school alumni teams, don't they?

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Roy's legacy is very secure IMO. Top ten of all time? Not for me, but he was great to watch, especially in his prime.

I really wish a lot of potential match-ups back then materialized from Eubank to Benn to Michalzewski and others. Roy had a lot of B-level wins at 175. One of his fights featured him fighting a B level dude while wearing a microphone and another where he'd played basketball earlier in the day. These were novelty wins where the opponent is so weak that another angle has to be played in order to increase interest in the match-up, which for me, is BS. No one cares if you can fight with a microphone or after playing basketball. Those were pretty demeaning.

That said, he was amazing to watch in his 160-168 days. His speed and accuracy and power were excellent- all A ++++. I have a lot of respect for Roy and he's obviously an ATG and a HOF er if he ever does stay retired. My biggest qualm is that for whatever reason, a lot of good fights and solid opponents that he could have fought and beat in my opinion would have boosted him higher. I think he would definitely have beaten Eubank and Benn but you still have to do it. Ifs don't count toward legacy. The James Toney fight, though, will always be huge. While not a fun fight to watch per se, it was a great win by two guys at or near their best where Jones was very dominant. 4-division champion and unification at 175 are nice feathers in the cap as well.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

When it comes to Jones and the Klit brothers, I guess I am a bit like iron dan hammy with Toney. One reason I do not like Jones or Mayweather is because I believe they enjoyed toying with the viewers they had promised action fights to. Their promises were always empty. In a mythical matchup, whichever ATG you put them up against, expect a boring fight, if you could actually make such a fight. They are like poker players that continually talk a loose game trying to get everyone else to loosen up and gamble while they remain tight asse s.

One thing that holds Jones back in ATG rankings is his chin. Yes, apparently no one knows for sure if it was actually terrible when he was younger, because he hardly ever got hit. But people do easily recognize that it was terrible when he got older, and that does not help the AT reputation, and creates a permanent suspicion that he always had a glass chin.

If someone could produce video evidence that somewhere along the line Roy actually survived a helluva wallop from someone, it would go a ways towards easing this suspicion and partially restoring his AT aura. However, I cannot remember him ever taking much of a punch until ordinary punches started knocking him out.

Without the security of a good chin, fans should not rank him too high AT, in my opinion. I have believed for years that chin is the number one quality needed for a boxer to be great, because sooner or later it will always be tested, usually sooner. Jones may be the rare case where it was later.

Excellent post! I love the notion of Jones and Mayweather acting like a real fight is about to go down but it never happens. They both did that quite a lot.

As far as the chin theory, I hear you and agree to a point, but what about guys like Hearns? Hearns would be in my top fifty or maybe even twenty and he didn't have a great chin but he had just about everything else. Thoughts?

[Tony Trick-Pony]

If his boxing IQ was fine then he would have been able to adjust and still be good as he got older.

But unlike Mayweather or Hopkins he never did. Roy completely fell off once he was out of his athletic prime.

See this is the thing. I think ring IQ and really, fundamentals were very lacking with Roy. He scored a lot of KOs and got a lot of wins because of his speed but also his awkard style. I mean, when did Roy throw a jab? Ever? Hopkins and Mayweather adjusted their styles with age but Roy never did, as you say. Great observation and post!

[robertzimmerman]

His lack of boxing fundamentals destroy his legacy for me.

Relying on your natural talents isnt enough for a very long career. And his resume is very overrated

Destroy his legacy?

He had 10 years at the top.

His resume is underrated more than overrated.

[The Old LefHook]

Excellent post! I love the notion of Jones and Mayweather acting like a real fight is about to go down but it never happens. They both did that quite a lot.

As far as the chin theory, I hear you and agree to a point, but what about guys like Hearns? Hearns would be in my top fifty or maybe even twenty and he didn't have a great chin but he had just about everything else. Thoughts?

The freak dimensions and abilities of Hearns were able to compensate for a semi-weak chin. Look what it took to compensate, however. It took a guy who was taller than everyone else, faster than almost everyone else, and who hit harder than almost anyone else. That is quite a package of compensation. Don't expect another talented freak to climb the ranks with a chin like that anytime soon. I think the full compensation package for a weak chin in boxing is too rare a genetic event.

For instance, examine your own top twenty list or anyone else's. Almost every guy there (if not every guy) had a stellar chin. Yet some of them had mediocre jabs, some had only average hooks, mediocre footwork, so-so stamina.

But where are the weak chins? This is how I came to my conclusion about chin being the most important physical attribute of the trade a boxer can possess. It isn't reach, speed, stamina or heart, though of course those are important.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

The freak dimensions and abilities of Hearns were able to compensate for a semi-weak chin. Look what it took to compensate, however. It took a guy who was taller than everyone else, faster than almost everyone else, and who hit harder than almost anyone else. That is quite a package of compensation. Don't expect another talented freak to climb the ranks with a chin like that anytime soon. I think the full compensation package for a weak chin in boxing is too rare a genetic event.

For instance, examine your own top twenty list or anyone else's. Almost every guy there (if not every guy) had a stellar chin. Yet some of them had mediocre jabs, some had only average hooks, mediocre footwork, so-so stamina.

But where are the weak chins? This is how I came to my conclusion about chin being the most important physical attribute of the trade a boxer can possess. It isn't reach, speed, stamina or heart, though of course those are important.

Very good points, sir.

And yes, Hearns was a genetic freak, no doubt.

[Geralt69]

If Jones had retired right after whipping Ruiz...

If Holyfield had retired after either Tyson fight...

Their legacies would be so much more pristine.

But don't you think them taking steroids taints there accomplishments somewhat?

[billeau2]

And Roy felt the same way if they had fought in Germany. They should've just signed a contract to fight at least twice, first in the US and then in Germany, with a huge penalty if the contract is breached. There ya go, problem solved.

There is just one problem Anthony, there is no way in heaven, hell and the six worlds (Buddhist cosmology lol) that the German Pole could beat Roy...Roy feasted on boxer punchers who like to set their feet and come forward. He would have dominated the man.

I made this point in another thread in the oaf section: Roy never subjected himself to guys with reach (Nun might have been a good fight for him), guys with freakish speed, guys who came forward no matter what, he liked to fight guys who were technically very strong, usually boxer punchers. Even Tarver, who was a boxer puncher, was rangy and managed to catch him going back. Glen Johnson, was not afraid to get hit and was able to pursue him and cut the ring off. JOnes was great and a marvel but was more limited than most people imagine.

[billeau2]

I can hear the possible objections already. If the chin of Jones was not tested until his prime was well over, then we can rank him high without ever seeing his chin tested.

Now I object. Other ATGs can be expected to find and test Roy's chin a lot sooner than the shoe clerks he was fighting did. The man now has to go up against the likes of Foster, Tunney and Charles. They will find his chin, just as he will find theirs. Will he still be hard to hit? Of course, but they are ATGs, not fish vendors, so will find it and test it. Tunney was not exactly slow.

Actually lefty,

The more I looked into it the more I come up to the same impasse regarding Jones, and it applies even to guys who many are saying he should have fought. These guys were all cut from the same cloth, they were boxer punchers. We have no concept of how Roy would have fared against reach, comparable speed, real persistence, like Armstrong, guys who did not plant their feet when they threw their shots... against guys who could nullify speed with great power... What makes it suspicious is when Jones finally lost, if we look at Tarver and Johnson, well Tarver was, at the time, a relatively rangy fighter and he gave Roy problems both fights. Glen Johnson, was a high output, come forward guy and by not reacting to Roy's arsenal and coming forwards, he defeated Roy easily.

Was it Roy's age? Probably but look at the guys he beat, even at the high level, Hopkins, Toney, McCallum...all boxer punchers who were technically superb, Mccallum was past it actually... Roy would probably have has some problems with the reach of Michael Nun even...

Roy feasted on one kind of opponent as compared to, for example, Ray Leonard, who fought many types of guys... people were even saying he would make Michael Spinks look bad, I don't think so. Again, who did Roy fight with that kind of power? Leonard fought Hearns, and Hagler, and Duran, three different types of fighters, all ATG right there... So I think Roy was superb but very beatable compared to what people imagine.