Who is the greatest of all time? P4P? Robinson, Leonard, Mayweather or RJJ?

[BattlingNelson]

Maybe Rusty can define what he means with the term 'eye-test'? I suspect it has nothing to do with a boxer having 20-20 vision ….. because Greb was partially blind.

[billeau2]

So you're saying Maxie was NOT fighting with the cuffs on?

I guess I cannot prove otherwise.



I don't believe you.

While there's no drug/treatment which will provide proper punching mechanics and accuracy, fighters using steroids in particular become more powerful strikers. Just like Bonds became a home-run slugger.

Apply the same to baseball, you think Ted Williams would have NOT benefited from Barry Bonds' medicine cabinet? 40 pounds heavier and more explosive - and he would NOT have been knocking more balls out of the park?

How about Montana's noodle arm? yeah, he would grow to 6'4", but he'd be firing a rocket closer to what Kaepernick threw, or am I wrong?

Same with Boxing/Martial Arts. Steroids allow fighters to be more explosive.




I really don't know what the physique of a "roid user" would be. Do you mind defining it? While we're talking about steroids, this conversation encompasses all PEDs. Steroids, TRT and HGH, which have tell-tale signs of body malformation, only show those signs were seriously misused.

Wilder's ability to pack on 10pounds, but then suddenly lose it and never regain it, is a strong suggestion that he was using.

People assume that using PEDs means using steroids to get stupid big, like Pro-Wrestlers, but that's like saying all people drive race cars because the whole point of driving is to get from one place to another as quickly as possible. Almost no one drives race cars, you don't actually even see them on the street. Sports cars are the closest thing, and what percentage of the population drives them?

Even diuretics are a useful PED. How else did Toney make it into the ring to fight at Cruiserweight? He didn't need to completely overhaul his lifestyle, he got professional consulation from a Doctor.
Don't you think Mickey Walker had those diuretics before facing Schmeling? Or Duran once he had basically eaten himself out of the Welterweight division?

I'm sorry to go on such a tangent, but I want us to be mindful of what PEDs encompass. Sometimes we still say steroids when we mean all performing-enhancement drugs. With Roy and Joshua is was mostly/entirely steroids. But again, their objective wasn't to become Triple H or The Rock.





In K1 and MMA the strikers are less refined. Simply put, Boxers have the best technique, and it works down from there. But the inverse is true in terms of effectiveness.

The fact that so many fighters in MMA oscillate between periods of great success and abysmal lows shows two things congruent with the severity of regulations shows two things:
1) It's not simply mechanics and training.
2) Even age can be defied by science.

For Boxers it's murkier because the skills are so refined. Guys like Moore and Foreman can be KO Artists as good as they ever were deep into their 40's because the had refined skills. There's no evidence Robinson scored a KO as impressive as the one he did against Fullmer earlier in his career.

That's skill.

Some dumb ass rassler such as myself going in there and KO'ing opponents in the opening seconds of the fight simply by slugging wildly... and then a few years later, when those skills should be more refined.. unable to pop a grape. That's much more conspicuous. The dude's "talent" came from a needle in the ass.



We were both teachers, so we know Ockham's razor is very much a thing of perspective. The students always see it differently than we do.

With Roy, the fact that he was in the spotlight and feeling static, he clammed up. He probably went cold turkey. Even the decision to abandon Heavyweight should tell you something. Yes, dropping all that weight to fight Tarver in such a short period of time, no less, had a negative effect on his body. But why did he do it? Why was all his power gone? Why did he never recover once he started losing?

Too many questions that aren't easily satisfied by he defenders attempts to clear away accusations.

Sorry for the looong post. Just some thoughts.

Some great stuff to talk about. Let me respond in the same sequence you use.

Regarding Slappsi: You don't have to be able to prove a negative, its always going to be opinion in this matter, but its fair to ask about the nature of the opinion as you are asking.

From Mendoza, to Chyrsantium Joe, who mentored Johnson, all the way up to Max B (and beyond)... culturally many Jewish fighters often had a deep and profound respect for technique, and the ability to be effective with less violence. I can only say this particular opinion comes from my Dad's side of the family. My dad who was Jewish, boxed in the Marines second world war, loved boxing, and despised the more violent aspects of the sport. He liked a contest where skill and technique won the match, and not brute force.

I think guys like Rosenbloom developed a style where they could win the sport and both guys could go home with the same Iq they came into the ring with. This is why I believe that none of these guys would just take that steriod induced power and run with it... Max Bauer could have done so in my opinion BTW and been a lot better historically. But this is an opinion, nothing more.


How would steriods make Ted Williams more explosive? Williams had super human reflexes, and he had incredibly strong wrists, from his grandfather having him swing around a saber. Certainly if we take a guy who is slower and weaker on the draw, and we give him a way to improve those qualities, like Miguyer and Bonds, we can see how that would work. But at a certain point there are diminishting returns... The hitting ability of Williams and Carew was in the stroke, the timing, reflexes, the wrists, it was in the swing... Muscles don't a hit ball farther unless a lot of other things are in place.

I agree with you that to a degree there is chemical help, but when Bonds, for example, was "helped" he was not a spectacular hitter by any means. Surely if you take an average individual and give them muscle and speed, you can help them immeasurably, but this does not necessarily translate when discussing the best, put another way: at some point there are diminishing returns on building strength and applying it to fine motor coordination. A good analogy would be, Horsepower is great, but Torque is the real measure of performance. You can have all the horses in the world under the hood! But power is where the rubber meets the road...

Montana is a great example. Great QB for sure. You know who was rumored to have the strongest arm? Not Dan Pastorini...a guy by the name of Jeff George, ever heard of him? Not many have because it does not matter really. It may have made Montana greater, but I wonder... Montana's greatness was never challenged because his throws were soft. Also, 'explosiveness" is more a quality, something you train into technique than muscle function. So when it comes to fighters, i do not see a definite advantage to trying to get bigger...You get explosive through how you train technique.

On the other hand being bigger, stronger, faster, became a necessity in football I believe we have a case where steriods revolutionized the sport. I agree on that point. BUT much more important is your next point about the average, or lack thereof, the average steriod user. I agree with you 100% on this point. It is a point I often try to make on the boards here. Steriod use at the biological level becomes interwined with nutrition, and other alterations we make to our intake to create superior outtake.

Victor Comte was a nutritionalist who bought a very sophisticated metabolic spectrometer. He went into micro nutrition, which is how he worked with the best athletes as a client base. At a certain level, what we call "steriods" are part of that chemical make up in our blood. I know this because one of my son's Godfathers knows Comte as a friend, and told me all about him.

So when we talk about peds, your point is a big problem: there are many outcomes, substances and uses... eventually when we go into this rabbit hole we find that part of peak nutritional and physical training involves messengers in the blood that ask the body to grow stronger. Great point!

An example of the problem? well you can increase bone density by microfracturing the bones...I know because it happened with me, my hands, legs, from karate, fractures happened...Literally when you heal after a rebreak the body says "uhoh we need to grow more bone per the volume so this does not happen!" Well...A steriod increasing bone and muscle density basically does the same thing, it tells the body "grow this area thicker" without the trauma associated with the process. So is one method "good" or "bad" because of how it is accomplished? Again, great point...

MMA is a new thing still, I don't know if we can really look at performance with any controls. Not that long ago guys were looking at what arts to bring in, then they looked at what happens during a match (great idea) to decide what to train in. if we look at the orignal UFC as a control vis a vis steriod use... there is just too deep a chasm. It turns out that when training for the ring, professional fighters have an advantage over those who train in a variety of styles, with a variety of skill levels, and a variety of individuals, etc... WHO KNEW! (sarcasm alert lol).

I brought up Ockham because there are a lot of things that could be responsible for JOnes versus Tarver and the result where JOnes was KO'ed. Nice post enjoyed responding to it. I think we are in agreement about a very integral point in this whole debate: Steriods are part of a much larger issue. When people look carefully there is a lot more to consider than just a cure all.

[djtmal]

My current list


1. Srl
2. Hagler
3. Pernell
4. RJ
5. Duran
6. Hitman
7. Chavez
8. Manny
9. Hopkins
10. Floyd

[billeau2]

Who has the sharper punching?

Who has the better footwork?

Who better avoids getting hit?

Who better controls the ring?

Who beats up on bigger men, not smaller ones?

Who is better at adjusting mid-fight?

Who is more accurate?

Who has more heart and focus?

Who is more technically sound?

I know you won't answer. You know Robinson is dog sh.it compared to Lomachenko.

But I actually appreciate your test. I am really considering moving Robinson lower still. He was a real bi.tch. Seeing him quit against joey fookin maxim. When we have footage of Canzoneri going 20 rounds with the incomparable Jimmy McLarnin. Despite McLarnin's power and size advantage, Canzoneri went 1-1.The rematch carryingthe caveat that McLarnin opnened up aa wound Canzoneri had suffered in sparring.

Canzoneri was the P4P King, until Ray showed up. Apparently, after the War, people forgot what P4P meant.

But hey, you think that fast food you eat is really food. Who can blame you for the other decisions you make?

I know I won't. Not TUH DAY!

Rusty:

the term "P4P" was created based on Ray Robinson's abilities.
To consider another fighter time has to pass. Taking an active fighter who is still in the mix is just not how you compare apples to apples.

I tend to feel that one day Andre Ward will be looked upon as an excellent ATG, but I cannot really compare him yet, the dust has to settle!

Because of the things Robinson could do in the ring, he was used as a "standard" torch bearer for greatness. Among those things was the ability to fight and KO someone while moving backwards, punching technique and footwork.

One does not have to think Robinson was the greatest, but historically there are some reasons that is my point. Heavyweights have the most influence but do not generally have the variety of skills one observes in the lower weight classes.

[cfang]

I say Greb here. Even though theres no film of him, his record is simply unparalleled in the history of the sport, nobody fought such tough competition outside their weight class so often over such a long time and won as consistently as greb. He was I think a freak of nature and clearly a man born to fight.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rusty:

the term "P4P" was created based on Ray Robinson's abilities.

No. It absolutely was not. In fact, it long predates the official sport of Boxing.

Because of the things Robinson could do in the ring, he was used as a "standard" torch bearer for greatness. Among those things was the ability to fight and KO someone while moving backwards, punching technique and footwork.

He was the most exciting during the Golden Age. At least Canzoneri and Leonard had been bestowed the same accolade. The title fit, much like Ali as "The Greatest".

Simply repeating a lie does not make it true. And discussions don't owe anything to folklore.

Do you believe Herakles was a real person... errr "Demigod"? Or do you consider that Greek myth?

If I call Alexander the greatest of the ancients, will you object and say I am wrong because EVERYONE knows it's Harakles? What if I ask for proof? will you point to ruined temples and public opinion as proof?

Fast Food restuarants believe they serve food worth eating. They even pay millions of dollars for flashy slogans. So is it that my tastebuds are wrong?

One does not have to think Robinson was the greatest, but historically there are some reasons that is my point.

Butthey should be able to substantiate it beyond the fallacy of argumentum ad populum. They all do.
And when challenged they should be able to answer questions meaningfully.
None can.

Heavyweights have the most influence but do not generally have the variety of skills one observes in the lower weight classes.

And now it's the other way: popular lower-weight fighters are listed over less popular more accomplished fighters. It's just as much a popularity contest.

Interesting bringing up Heavyweights.

I actually accomodate the Heavyweights very well, I believe. I can appreciate how much harder certain things are for a bigger man. For example, I hold Harold Johnson in faaaar greater esteem than I do Ricardo Lopez. Ali in higher esteem than Macho Camacho. And Fury in higher esteem than Miguel Canto. Gravity is a bi/tch. Big men know that better than anybody.

[billeau2]

No. It absolutely was not. In fact, it long predates the official sport of Boxing.




He was the most exciting during the Golden Age. At least Canzoneri and Leonard had been bestowed the same accolade. The title fit, much like Ali as "The Greatest".

Simply repeating a lie does not make it true. And discussions don't owe anything to folklore.

Do you believe Herakles was a real person... errr "Demigod"? Or do you consider that Greek myth?

If I call Alexander the greatest of the ancients, will you object and say I am wrong because EVERYONE knows it's Harakles? What if I ask for proof? will you point to ruined temples and public opinion as proof?

Fast Food restuarants believe they serve food worth eating. They even pay millions of dollars for flashy slogans. So is it that my tastebuds are wrong?



Butthey should be able to substantiate it beyond the fallacy of argumentum ad populum. They all do.
And when challenged they should be able to answer questions meaningfully.
None can.



And now it's the other way: popular lower-weight fighters are listed over less popular more accomplished fighters. It's just as much a popularity contest.

Interesting bringing up Heavyweights.

I actually accomodate the Heavyweights very well, I believe. I can appreciate how much harder certain things are for a bigger man. For example, I hold Harold Johnson in faaaar greater esteem than I do Ricardo Lopez. Ali in higher esteem than Macho Camacho. And Fury in higher esteem than Miguel Canto. Gravity is a bi/tch. Big men know that better than anybody.

In boxing Robinson was the progenator of the concept of the best P4P, unless I am misinformed. the point is that its not a lie, it is based on what he was able to do in the ring. Fighting men, trainers, etc gave Ray Robinson the accolodes...the truth is many people have said Robinson did not even like to fight, and prefered to dance.

There is good reasons for considering Robinson a fighter that set a new standard. Now...with that said there are valid points about other fighters who some might call better. But its not hyperbole talking about Ray Robinson as the greatest, that I can see. For you to point out that fighters like Duran might be better, is fair enough but there is plenty of tape on Robinson and reasons on that tape to consider him great. There is also a whole bunch of tape missing.

I can see picking other fighters as greater, but there are reasons why art critics talk about Picasso, Cezanne... and there are reasons why Noma has 4 stars michelin... Or for that matter when the French Haute cuisine chefs patronized Alice Waters, there are reasons why she won that one... When we went to her place Chez Panise' they had the nerve to literally serve, for dessert, a type of tangerine, that was not even peeled! It was in a bowl with some of the leaves still on it, and I am thinking "really?" Well you peel the thing and bite in and it is the absolute sweetest, most golden orange, tangerine piece! lol. It may look like when mom sent you to school with a piece of fruit, but it sure does not taste like that!

[Rusty Tromboni]

In boxing Robinson was the progenator of the concept of the best P4P, unless I am misinformed. the point is that its not a lie, it is based on what he was able to do in the ring. Fighting men, trainers, etc gave Ray Robinson the accolodes...the truth is many people have said Robinson did not even like to fight, and prefered to dance.

I have seen articles where Dempsey (non-pareil) and Ftizsimmons were called the same.

Leonard and Canzoneri were called P4P the best, too.

The terms orginates with fighting roosters and dogs. Usually, they're on the small side. The gamest dog I've ever owned was a 30-something pound Pit *****. She thought she was a tiger. She had no bite, but she never released her hold.

In boxing Robinson was the progenator of the concept of the best P4P, unless I am misinformed. the point is that its not a lie, it is based on what he was able to do in the ring. Fighting men, trainers, etc gave Ray Robinson the accolodes...the truth is many people have said Robinson did not even like to fight, and prefered to dance.

There is good reasons for considering Robinson a fighter that set a new standard. Now...with that said there are valid points about other fighters who some might call better. But its not hyperbole talking about Ray Robinson as the greatest, that I can see. For you to point out that fighters like Duran might be better, is fair enough but there is plenty of tape on Robinson and reasons on that tape to consider him great. There is also a whole bunch of tape missing.

I can see picking other fighters as greater, but there are reasons why art critics talk about Picasso, Cezanne... and there are reasons why Noma has 4 stars michelin... Or for that matter when the French Haute cuisine chefs patronized Alice Waters, there are reasons why she won that one... When we went to her place Chez Panise' they had the nerve to literally serve, for dessert, a type of tangerine, that was not even peeled! It was in a bowl with some of the leaves still on it, and I am thinking "really?" Well you peel the thing and bite in and it is the absolute sweetest, most golden orange, tangerine piece! lol. It may look like when mom sent you to school with a piece of fruit, but it sure does not taste like that!

Nice point on Alice Waters. My brother and his wife often go out to California to visit her family and he told me about visiting that restuarant. My wife's mother is "Indian". She was born there, she talks about how much better the fruits were as a little girl. It really didn't sound too far fetched from what I remembered tomatoes and other vegetables tasting like in South Jersey, as a kid. My parents had six kids so they bought them because they were cheap, but they tasted better than anything available in the grocery store.

In the case of Robinson, he's more of an Emril, or Julia Childs, or the Frugal Gourment or Bobby Flay. Very good chefs, but famous as much for their ability to stand in front of a camera as anything else.

Ray had impeccable timing - both in the ring, and in life. He was the first to come of age in the era of a preponderance of film. He's ingrained in the public consciousness unlike his predecessors. And everyone else on film came after.

[BattlingNelson]

I have seen articles where Dempsey (non-pareil) and Ftizsimmons were called the same.

Leonard and Canzoneri were called P4P the best, too.

The terms orginates with fighting roosters and dogs. Usually, they're on the small side. The gamest dog I've ever owned was a 30-something pound Pit *****. She thought she was a tiger. She had no bite, but she never released her hold.





Nice point on Alice Waters. My brother and his wife often go out to California to visit her family and he told me about visiting that restuarant. My wife's mother is "Indian". She was born there, she talks about how much better the fruits were as a little girl. It really didn't sound too far fetched from what I remembered tomatoes and other vegetables tasting like in South Jersey, as a kid. My parents had six kids so they bought them because they were cheap, but they tasted better than anything available in the grocery store.

In the case of Robinson, he's more of an Emril, or Julia Childs, or the Frugal Gourment or Bobby Flay. Very good chefs, but famous as much for their ability to stand in front of a camera as anything else.

Ray had impeccable timing - both in the ring, and in life. He was the first to come of age in the era of a preponderance of film. He's ingrained in the public consciousness unlike his predecessors. And everyone else on film came after.

Sooooo…. What's 'eye-test' to you Rusty?

[billeau2]

I have seen articles where Dempsey (non-pareil) and Ftizsimmons were called the same.

Leonard and Canzoneri were called P4P the best, too.

The terms orginates with fighting roosters and dogs. Usually, they're on the small side. The gamest dog I've ever owned was a 30-something pound Pit *****. She thought she was a tiger. She had no bite, but she never released her hold.





Nice point on Alice Waters. My brother and his wife often go out to California to visit her family and he told me about visiting that restuarant. My wife's mother is "Indian". She was born there, she talks about how much better the fruits were as a little girl. It really didn't sound too far fetched from what I remembered tomatoes and other vegetables tasting like in South Jersey, as a kid. My parents had six kids so they bought them because they were cheap, but they tasted better than anything available in the grocery store.

In the case of Robinson, he's more of an Emril, or Julia Childs, or the Frugal Gourment or Bobby Flay. Very good chefs, but famous as much for their ability to stand in front of a camera as anything else.

Ray had impeccable timing - both in the ring, and in life. He was the first to come of age in the era of a preponderance of film. He's ingrained in the public consciousness unlike his predecessors. And everyone else on film came after.

Thats the funny thing alot of people do not know about Pits, they do not have the strongest bite, but they do not let go. I have two rescue guys, they are mutts, one has a lot of German Sheppard... I love sheppards and Dobies. The other one looks like hound and pit, he is a strong boy lol. He comes buy to sit on me and it feels like a ton of bricks, and I am a big guy lol. Those two keep me sane, I always miss them when I travel.

Growing up in New York City we would get Jersey Beefsteak tomatoes. They were fantastic. I seldom get a tomatoe that taste half as good, even from the high end heir loom type places. India has an incredible food culture, I love the food. Again hard to get good Indian food. My favorite Indian restaurant in berkely closed down a few years back. It was a spice store, so they had all the nice quality spices at hand. Ive had the best Indian food in London near the airport, really nice food in Toronto when I was a grad student. Decent stuff in the city (New York) but here in Baltimore, nothing very good.

Does your wife cook stuff from the home land? Its funny about the chefs you name, you chose well. Emiril had a fantastic menu, but as a chef he is mediocre, and don't get me started on Flay... Nothing special I can see there. I mean Jersey has all kinds of food traditions... most Italian guys my dad knew (they were mobbed up lol) cooked and knew about incredible food and wine. We would go to social events and there were giant pots of steamers with clarified butter, pasta, meat sauces, cod fish sauces! garlic and clam sauces, and the pizza... Oh man.

milky white Mozzarella, light and pungent sauce, and a crust that had a crisp bite to it...even the deep dish (what was called sicilian pizza in New YorK) had a crust that had crunch to it on the bottom.

I cook great stuff for the family when not travelling, they are kind of spoiled! My wife is from Louisiana and from being with her all these years, knowing the family, and even living down there for a spell, I learned how to cook all the dishes cajun/creole.

I love great food, but don't like the sort of foodie, snobbery that often goes with it.