lennox lewis the greatest heavyweight of all time.

[StarshipTrooper]

Okay, this is starting to turn into another NSB style hate thread. Lets keep this adult and rational before all the trolls start crawling into it.

Poet

[-Lowkey-]

you call me an idiot yet you can't spell explain.....see its ******ed to be pedantic.........i can't argue with you if you actually thought he lost...yes the ref may have pulled Vitali out...but it was one of the most controversial heavyweight fights for a reason...why don't you go an watch the fight you imbecile

Ok I made a typo thanks for pulling me up on it I guess you ‘pwned’ me then to right?

The fight was controversial? Let me tell you it would have been a whole lot more controversial had the fight been allowed to continue and vitali permanently lost his sight in that eye witch in my eyes was a distinct possibility.

Like I said lewis was old past prime and had not fought for over a year yet he still managed to make vitali look like a victim of a dog mauling.

Manny steward even said vitalis only claim to fame is giving a past prime lewis a tough fight I agree with manny

[GJC]

How Good Was/Is Mike Tyson?

By Frank Scoblete
30 January 2000

Now that Mike Tyson's career is almost over, it might be of interest to take a cold hard look at just how good he was at his best to get some idea of where he stands in the rankings of the great heavyweight champions.

It is not a stretch to say that much of the fearsome Tyson persona of a decade or more ago was media hype and was little related to what he actually accomplished in the ring or against whom he accomplished it.

We can make a case that Tyson fought "never-wases" and "nothing-lefters" in his early career culminating with his knockout over an intimidated former light-heavyweight champion Michael Spinks, whose only real claim to fame was "winning" two controversial decisions against an aging and distracted Larry Holmes.

Other than the light-hitting, terrified Spinks and the out-of-shape, intimidated, comebacking, former great Larry Holmes, who did Tyson actually fight in his pre-prison days who was truly any good in absolute terms? If we measure competition based on who Ali faced, then who of all Tyson's pre-prison opponents was as good as Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers, Joe Bugner, Mac Foster, Floyd Patterson, Zora Foley, Cleveland Williams, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster or Ernie Terrell, not to mention the awesome likes of all-time greats Sonny Liston, George Foreman or Smokin' Joe Frazier? Would you classify Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tucker, Trevor Berbick or Frank Bruno with any those other fighters? Only if you never saw them fight!

The only real fight the pre-prison Tyson ever had was against the only decent heavyweight fighter he fought, a determined, well-conditioned Buster Douglas -- and Tyson was roundly beaten, battered and knocked out! That was Tyson in his prime, against a fighter who went on to "extinguish" himself by being knocked out in three rounds by Evander Holyfield.

If the pre-prison Tyson's boxing worth must be looked at with some skepticism, then the post-prison Tyson must be looked upon with scorn. Often in boxing, the true greatness of a fighter is not actually known when he is in his prime as he defeats opponent after opponent rather convincingly. It is only after he ages, slows down, and gets himself into wars are we aware of just how good the fighter is -- and was!

Certainly that was true of Ali. Before he made his comeback from an almost four-year forced layoff, there were all sorts of questions about his ability. Could he take a punch? Had he been beating up washed-up fighters? Did he have courage? Would he dog it if he were ever in a real fight? The layoff slowed Ali down, made him more vulnerable. What's more, great fighters appeared in that time, fighters better than any he had previously fought!

So a somewhat diminished Ali met each and every challenger -- starting with a comeback fight against highly ranked Jerry Quarry and then a second fight against vicious number-one contender Oscar Bonavena. His first career loss to Joe Frazier in his third comeback fight proved he could take a punch and that he had mountains of courage. That fight was the first of several "wars" Ali would fight in this second part of his career.

His next loss was to Ken Norton. Fighting 11 rounds with a broken jaw, Ali merely proved again that he was as courageous as any fighter who ever lived. His great victories against these very same fighters and his upset win over the god-like Foreman, showed what a great fighter he was -- and how much greater he had been before his layoff!

Not so with Tyson. His "layoff" was heralded with a return to the ring against a rank amateur, Peter McNeeley, whom Tyson "destroyed" with a wild flurry in round one. This same McNeeley was later knocked out by the bloated Butterbean in one round and has since lost just about every real fight he's had! And what of Buster Mathis, Jr., Bruce "I was knocked out by a gust of air" Seldon, Francois Botha, or Julian Francis? Are they credible opponents? Only if elephants can fly.

The only real fight the post-prison Tyson had of any significance was against Evander Holyfield, who was selected because he appeared to be a shot fighter, having lost two out of three to the disappointing Riddick Bowe. Had Tyson known that Holyfield was not a shot fighter, but actually the only great heavyweight of the 1990s, I'm sure he would have selected a different fighter to beat, perhaps a third go-round with the overrated Razor Ruddock who proved himself a worthy Tyson contender by being knocked out in one round by the otherwise cautious Lennox Lewis.

So here we have a very simple yardstick for measuring the greatness of Mike Tyson. He fought two hard fights, one pre-prison and one post-prison -- both of which he lost (subsequently, he ate his way to a third loss and fouled himself into a no-decision). The rest of his victories, pre-prison and post-prison, were over fighters who couldn't make the "C" list during Ali's tenure. So where does that put him on the list of all-time greats?

It doesn't. He doesn't belong. He's not even in the top 20!

If you think of the very few good heavyweight fighters who have plied their trade in the late 1980s and 1990s, it is a short list: Evander Holyfield, George Foreman (oh, yes, the Big George who fought Holyfield would have rocked Iron Mike just as he did Smokin' Joe), Riddick Bowe, and maybe Lennox Lewis and Michael Moorer. Tyson only fought one of them, and lost. The others he avoided.

I do not, as some writers do, lament the fact that Mike Tyson never lived up to his potential. In fact, I believe he did live up to it, fully, completely. His potential just wasn't all that great and that's what he became -- not all that great.

Interesting article but a little harsh on Tyson and that is from someone who never bought into Tyson being the greatest hype. TYson wasn't as great a HW as Ali? Join a very long queue! Tyson had a four or five year peak which if you compare him to other short armed fighters such as Frazier and Marciano is about what they had too. That type of fighter doesn't usually make old bones in the ring

[Joeyzagz]

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Jim Jeffries
Sonny Liston
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Joe Frazier
Rocky Marciano
Ezzard Charles
Riddick Bowe
Floyd Patterson
Gene Tunney
Wlad Klitschko
Michael Spinks
Jersey Joe Walcott
Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis

^^I was about to complain until I realized you left Foreman out altogether. Its a farce list designed to bait...what else is new?

You use terms like "fat", "old" to disparage some of Lennox's competition but you never acknowledge that Lennox was the fattest, oldest and most out of shape of his career when he overcame Vitali(dominant champ of next era)...

When Ruddock, Tyson, or Bowe have tough fights they are considered damaged goods by you, but Lennox, can get "poleaxed" by Rahman in his mid 30's, roughed up by Mercer, and still expected to execute at top form.

Basically you hold Lennox to a higher standard than everybody else. He is immune to getting fat, complacent, old, shot, or succumbing to addiction. This only happens to human fighters. Lennox is a Demi-God and shouldve beaten 19 of your top 20 instead of only 4 of your top 20.(4 is still more than anyone else on YOUR list lol)....

[sonnyboyx2]

^^I was about to complain until I realized you left Foreman out altogether. Its a farce list designed to bait...what else is new?

You use terms like "fat", "old" to disparage some of Lennox's competition but you never acknowledge that Lennox was the fattest, oldest and most out of shape of his career when he overcame Vitali(dominant champ of next era)...

When Ruddock, Tyson, or Bowe have tough fights they are considered damaged goods by you, but Lennox, can get "poleaxed" by Rahman in his mid 30's, roughed up by Mercer, and still expected to execute at top form.

Basically you hold Lennox to a higher standard than everybody else. He is immune to getting fat, complacent, old, shot, or succumbing to addiction. This only happens to human fighters. Lennox is a Demi-God and shouldve beaten 19 of your top 20 instead of only 4 of your top 20.(4 is still more than anyone else on YOUR list lol)....

was an oversight that i did not include Foreman...

Lewis got poleaxed in his PRIME by McCall..
Lewis never overcame Vitali, he was fortunate to say the least to get the victory
i use the words `fat` and `old` because that is exactly what they was and for you to claim otherwise is simply not correct

[them_apples]

Lewis fought and beat all the best of his era.He also battered Tyson after he had ducked him so long.Ruddock was favoured to beat him and Lewis eat him easier than Tyson ever did.

stick around a little longer you might learn a thing or 2. Lewis' was good but def not the greatest. He beat sub par competition and Mike Tyson's left overs.

[Joeyzagz]

was an oversight that i did not include Foreman...

.. It just shows that you were more focused on squeezing joke names ahead of LL, than making an actual ATG list.

Lewis never overcame Vitali, he was fortunate to say the least to get the victory
i use the words `fat` and `old` because that is exactly what they was

Lennox was the oldest, fattest, most inactive in his career against Vitali. This is a FACT. If being fat and old is bad, you have to take it into account everywhere, not just when convenient.

Jack Dempsey never overcame Tunney
Louis never overcame Marciano
Marciano never overcame a prime fighter of the next era
Ali never overcame Holmes
Holmes never overcame Tyson
Tyson never overcame Holyfield, Lennox, or anyone important in the 90's


Do you realize that Lennox is one of the elite few to WIN against a PRIME legit guy of the next era?

Can you imagine, the euphoria if Ali did this to a young Larry Holmes?


The younger, Prime, fighter is exhausted and clinging to a guy 6 years his elder. History shows that the young ATG should beat the Old ATG, but LL reversed it.


Lennox was outsized, outyouthed and outworked, yet still found a way to win. This is true greatness.

[sonnyboyx2]

.. It just shows that you were more focused on squeezing joke names ahead of LL, than making an actual ATG list.

Lennox was the oldest, fattest, most inactive in his career against Vitali. This is a FACT. If being fat and old is bad, you have to take it into account everywhere, not just when convenient.

Jack Dempsey never overcame Tunney
Louis never overcame Marciano
Marciano never overcame a prime fighter of the next era
Ali never overcame Holmes
Holmes never overcame Tyson
Tyson never overcame Holyfield, Lennox, or anyone important in the 90's


Do you realize that Lennox is one of the elite few to WIN against a PRIME legit guy of the next era?

Can you imagine, the euphoria if Ali did this to a young Larry Holmes?


The younger, Prime, fighter is exhausted and clinging to a guy 6 years his elder. History shows that the young ATG should beat the Old ATG, but LL reversed it.


Lennox was outsized, outyouthed and outworked, yet still found a way to win. This is true greatness.

i can assure you that none of those are `Joke-Names` it is my opinion that they would all beat Lennox Lewis fairly easily, i have first hand knowledge of Lewis having seen him fight live`on several occasions and i just cannot see him beat any of the fighters i listed... Lewis never in his entire career fought any fighter who was better than any of the 20 fighters i listed, Lewis only ever fought fighters who was on the downside of their career like Morrison, Tua, Ruddock & Bruno and fighters who was more than a decade past their best like Tyson, Tucker & Holyfield the rest of his opponents was Class C journeymen yet 2 of those poleaxed Lewis.... i could not see Lewis beat any of the fighters i listed and that list includes Michael Spinks who was good enough to out-jab and beat a good Larry Holmes (Twice) Floyd Patterson who was in Muhammad Ali`s words "The best boxer he ever fought".. if Rahman & McCall can put Lewis to sleep then just think what would happen when "The Spinks Jinx" lands or Pattersons leaping-in Left Hook, they would surely poleaxe Lewis, also Lewis has "Two-Left Feet" so has no chance against a skilled fighter who moves which is why he refused to fight Chris Byrd, Herbie Hide, Riddick Bowe & Roy Jones...Lewis was a mediocre fighter who avoided every contender who was "At The Top of their Game"

[sonnyboyx2]

.. It just shows that you were more focused on squeezing joke names ahead of LL, than making an actual ATG list.

Lennox was the oldest, fattest, most inactive in his career against Vitali. This is a FACT. If being fat and old is bad, you have to take it into account everywhere, not just when convenient.

Jack Dempsey never overcame Tunney
Louis never overcame Marciano
Marciano never overcame a prime fighter of the next era
Ali never overcame Holmes
Holmes never overcame Tyson
Tyson never overcame Holyfield, Lennox, or anyone important in the 90's


Do you realize that Lennox is one of the elite few to WIN against a PRIME legit guy of the next era?

Can you imagine, the euphoria if Ali did this to a young Larry Holmes?


The younger, Prime, fighter is exhausted and clinging to a guy 6 years his elder. History shows that the young ATG should beat the Old ATG, but LL reversed it.


Lennox was outsized, outyouthed and outworked, yet still found a way to win. This is true greatness.

you preaching that Lewis victory over Vitali is a sign of greatness yet he was undoubtedly very fortunate to get that victory and Vitali and his now title reign are regarded as the worst in Heavyweight History with HBO now refusing to telecast any Heavyweight fights live` due to the terrible state of the division, so for you to claim its `greatness` is laughable.... you need to focus on Lennox Lewis carrer from 92-2000 when the division was full of creditable fighters like Bowe, Tyson, Witherspoon, Holmes, Sanders, Ruiz, Hide, Moorer, Foreman, Holyfield, Wlad, Byrd, Ibeabuchi, Jones Jr. all of who was champions or top contenders and at the "Top of their Game" at some point during that period as was Lennox Lewis... how many of them did Lewis fight and defeat?.... Lewis was offered career highest purses to fight all those fighters yet he turned them all down, some of the offers was the largest in boxing history yet he still turned them down... Great fighters avoid no-one and Lennox Lewis was nothing more than an opportunist who avoided every top fighter who was at the top of his game and instead fought has-beens and fighters who was on the downslide.

[Cassius Liston]

Ok I made a typo thanks for pulling me up on it I guess you ‘pwned’ me then to right?

The fight was controversial? Let me tell you it would have been a whole lot more controversial had the fight been allowed to continue and vitali permanently lost his sight in that eye witch in my eyes was a distinct possibility.

Like I said lewis was old past prime and had not fought for over a year yet he still managed to make vitali look like a victim of a dog mauling.

Manny steward even said vitalis only claim to fame is giving a past prime lewis a tough fight I agree with manny

you spelt "which" wrong... .....oh no he didn't.....