Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[HOUDINI563]

The hwt division has always been considered differently from all the other divisions historically. The hwt champion is hypothetically the physical master of all men. It’s lineage as such plays a significant part of the “worth” of the title.

Look at it this way....would you consider as champion a title holder of a brand new boxing association? Let’s call them ABC. They initiate Jan 1 2019 and choose randomly their top ten contenders. By the end of 2020 they crown their new hwt champion. What gives that title any worth? It has no worth as there is no logic that links the new champions to any history of past champions. Yet this is exactly what has occurred over the years. In the end you end up as we are today with a mass of contenders fighting one another calling themselves champion.

[Marchegiano]

The bolded part. that is the biggest strength of the lineal. People like queeny get it @33 backwards: They need government, or some state sanctioned committee to hold their hand and chew their food for them. The fans are the reason for the sport, and when the fans give their power away, regarding what should be simple and straight forward, with little complication, every Tom Dick and Harry are more than happy to step in there and "Sanction" something for you.

Ive seen it in the martial arts for years. New jersey even tried to get a gaggle of some of the worse sleeze ball martial artists and make a martial arts license. More fees to the state, and competency decided by loons. What has the british boxing board done the last years to justify their existence? well they did almost manage to stop one of the best fights in years...Chisora and Haye had to fight outside their juristiction, they wanted to shut the fight down.

People that mock the lineal don't understand that like a good friend, it is around when you need it... So yeah when we have a strong dominant champ, and the lineal really is about the heavyweights primarily.... then no one needs to claim it. When alphabet soup starts to determine who is worthy then the lineal needs to step up. Again, very simple really.

I remember the 80s. Mullets, tight jeans ( ain't skinny just small) bandanas, and cigarettes. Everyone's a street fighting kung fu master who met Bruce Lee and whooped Chuck Norris while listening to Motley Crue's Dr. Feelgood

I obviously like anything that connects the past to the present, that said I like my sanctioning bodies too.

There's only one force responsible for cleaning up boxing as much as it is presently. It's easy to say to yourself the law would have eventually reigned boxing in, but, the law had over a hundred years to get that done and failed to do anything but drive boxing into some real dirty criminal atmospheres.

Yankee Sullivan is a badass for having whooped Morrissey right in front of Morrissey's gang with their pistols drawn and left the ring to DQ himself so that Morrissey won the fix in the end. Cool story, but, Yankee ain't considered champion by no man...ain't that a kick in the dick for one of the greatest figures in boxing history. Dude kind of made American boxing, and got ****ed over by American crime.

Boxing and its boxers has a long history of outsmarting the lawman while hoodwinking the crimeman. Reckon it's a good thing we've a proper sport today.

Also, let's not pretend lineal wasn't ****ed. Corbett ****ed Maher and now Maher is considered champion by no man...well maybe some Irish. How about Deaf Burke? Jem Ward ****ed him over like five times and rather than giving Burke his reign at the start of the ****ery we only credit him after years of winning while Jem ducked him, retired and reclaimed his title after the vacancy fight, rinse and repeat for years, plus that 50 mil AJ-Wilder nonsense is a Jem Ward move except he got Burke's money before he denied the fight.

So yeah, give and take. Lineal is for when the bodies are bull**** and we all know it. Bodies are for when the industry itself becomes bull**** and we all know it.

Probably the bodies need a bit of their power stripped from them by fans, but I don't hate them.

[Jax teller]

Heavy is the only division with actual lineal ties.

Weight divisions come after sanctioning bodies not before. Before sanctioning bodies they are informal. Which means there is no LW division per se. The LW champ would be decided between two of the smaller active fighters of the era if at all. So in one era they may be 130s and in another 150s. Throughout the scope of time it'll jump all around. How does one spread that lineage out to the divisions? Only one man can beat a man and today the weight divisions are not flexible. Same for WW and MW. I don't reckon any other division has bare knuckle ties.

So, for me, because I'm a historical whore, Lineal outside of HW is an affront to Lineal. It does not exist. Like a ****ing lineal CW...gtfo with that ****. A lineage that goes back to the 20th century ain't got no ties to no old ways. That weight division is from the bodies and by the bodies and the only thing that presides over it is the bodies.

----

To be fair to Tyson there was never any point when he did not claim lineal. Folks didn't give a **** or did not take him seriously until he fought Wilder. If you look at when Ring stripped him, which is a ways prior to Wilder, he does explicitly state it was the first time in Ring history the Ring title and Lineal title were separated. He was claiming lineage.

I don't remember Wlad actually claiming it, but this whole thread is about how Ring claimed it after Chagaev and no one had a problem until Fury claimed it after retiring. So, I reckon Fury's claim good and strong in the old traditional ways.

The dispute over Wlad's lineage should have been handled during Wlad's reign. After is too late, that's tradition. So going in Wlad was the lineal and Tyson did lick him proper. Retiring hasn't stripped any of the old lineals but I'm not so sure about modern lineals.

I can tell youse this, Jem Ward did it like five times to Deaf Burke and Corbett did it to Maher. Both them dudes got their belts back after retirement just by claiming them even though they'd done been won by another in a vacancy fight.

So unless some modern history changes that tradition I reckon Fury's good to go bubba.

It's a little contradictive to not give full recognition to lineage in the lower weight classes as they do not pre-date the organisations/weight classes and fully recognise Fury's lineage when that particular line doesn't pre-date this century.

Also by nature of course it matters whether the initial creation of the line was legitimate as only the second champ in the line it is definitely not too late to refute it becuase if the line was not created then there was no line to carry on. So if there is cause for doubt there is a debate to be had regardless of the outcome which appear to be subjective.

To me it's seems like you are trying to have your cake and eat it trying to cover all bases to ensure Wilder v Fury has maximum meaning however there is would be no prestige in a illegitimately initiated lineal title as it would be paper title so you've just got to argue it's legimate and hope you can make a good enough case.

The only away Fury's Lineal title means something now is if it meant something for Wlads name as well.

[Laligalaliga]

Heavy is the only division with actual lineal ties.

Weight divisions come after sanctioning bodies not before. Before sanctioning bodies they are informal. Which means there is no LW division per se. The LW champ would be decided between two of the smaller active fighters of the era if at all. So in one era they may be 130s and in another 150s. Throughout the scope of time it'll jump all around. How does one spread that lineage out to the divisions? Only one man can beat a man and today the weight divisions are not flexible. Same for WW and MW. I don't reckon any other division has bare knuckle ties.

So, for me, because I'm a historical whore, Lineal outside of HW is an affront to Lineal. It does not exist. Like a ****ing lineal CW...gtfo with that ****. A lineage that goes back to the 20th century ain't got no ties to no old ways. That weight division is from the bodies and by the bodies and the only thing that presides over it is the bodies.

----

To be fair to Tyson there was never any point when he did not claim lineal. Folks didn't give a **** or did not take him seriously until he fought Wilder. If you look at when Ring stripped him, which is a ways prior to Wilder, he does explicitly state it was the first time in Ring history the Ring title and Lineal title were separated. He was claiming lineage.

I don't remember Wlad actually claiming it, but this whole thread is about how Ring claimed it after Chagaev and no one had a problem until Fury claimed it after retiring. So, I reckon Fury's claim good and strong in the old traditional ways.

The dispute over Wlad's lineage should have been handled during Wlad's reign. After is too late, that's tradition. So going in Wlad was the lineal and Tyson did lick him proper. Retiring hasn't stripped any of the old lineals but I'm not so sure about modern lineals.

I can tell youse this, Jem Ward did it like five times to Deaf Burke and Corbett did it to Maher. Both them dudes got their belts back after retirement just by claiming them even though they'd done been won by another in a vacancy fight.

So unless some modern history changes that tradition I reckon Fury's good to go bubba.

Well.... I don't know what to respond to all this but it is what it is.
Let's see how things go as the year runs out.

[Marchegiano]

It's a little contradictive to not give full recognition to lineage in the lower weight classes as they do not pre-date the organisations/weight classes and fully recognise Fury's lineage when that particular line doesn't pre-date this century.

Also by nature of course it matters whether the initial creation of the line was legitimate as only the second champ in the line it is definitely not too late to refute it becuase if the line was not created then there was no line to carry on. So if there is cause for doubt there is a debate to be had regardless of the outcome which appear to be subjective.

To me it's seems like you are trying to have your cake and eat it trying to cover all bases to ensure Wilder v Fury has maximum meaning however there is would be no prestige in a illegitimately initiated lineal title as it would be paper title so you've just got to argue it's legimate and hope you can make a good enough case.

The only away Fury's Lineal title means something now is if it meant something for Wlads name as well.

Apples and oranges....and you are reaching.

I spoke about the traditions that cover how titles got passed from champion to champion. You explain to me what the depth of Fury's particular lineage has to do with the depth of the traditions that preside over it.

Exactly. How a 130lb belt is passed along without sanctioning bodies is impossible in an era with sanctioning bodies. There is nothing but sanctioning body divisions and awards and folks trying to shove Heavyweight traditions into it outside of Heavyweight.


Most of what your talking about I don't understand at all. I think you've been indoctrinated to believe bull****. Lineal end? What the **** are you talking about? If lineal ended it'd be over. Lineal does not end. Tyson Fury has Sullivan's belt. That is the point. Vacancies have never and will never end the lineage.

It'd be like saying the Queen ain't the Queen because there was a vacancy at the throne in the past. The **** do you mean? She is the Queen and if Tyson ain't Lineal then someone's ass is because there is no breaks in lineal. Why the **** do you think we're talking about lineal if you believe every lineage is it's own separate entity? That is stupid Jax.

[Jax teller]

Apples and oranges....and you are reaching.

I spoke about the traditions that cover how titles got passed from champion to champion. You explain to me what the depth of Fury's particular lineage has to do with the depth of the traditions that preside over it.

Exactly. How a 130lb belt is passed along without sanctioning bodies is impossible in an era with sanctioning bodies. There is nothing but sanctioning body divisions and awards and folks trying to shove Heavyweight traditions into it outside of Heavyweight.


Most of what your talking about I don't understand at all. I think you've been indoctrinated to believe bull****. Lineal end? What the **** are you talking about? If lineal ended it'd be over. Lineal does not end. Tyson Fury has Sullivan's belt. That is the point. Vacancies have never and will never end the lineage.

It'd be like saying the Queen ain't the Queen because there was a vacancy at the throne in the past. The **** do you mean? She is the Queen and if Tyson ain't Lineal then someone's ass is because there is no breaks in lineal. Why the **** do you think we're talking about lineal if you believe every lineage is it's own separate entity? That is stupid Jax.

You can't campare a monarch where the position is succeeded in relation to who is the most direct heir to boxings Lineal champ which requires you to win a fight to the gain the title and therefore can most certianly end if the Champ retires undefeated.

There is a reason the phrase "the man that beat the man" is often coined with Lineal title holders and that means you can't just inherit them for nothing with new lines starting when the correct parameters are met.

You are being hypocritical choosing not recognise the concept of lineage at each weight class to sound smart and are only coming across as ignorantly snobbish.

[QueensburyRules]

--- He was dreaming of lineal titles for Monarch butterfly buttercup dustups.

That pollen has very strong psychoactive properties to power them across continents.

[billeau2]

Am not here to dispute your opinion, you are rightly entitled to it but he made a valid point which I agreed with which from all indications happens to be a fact.
Why is it in only HW division that some sections of fans are screaming lineal? Why are they not screaming the same for other 16 weight division?

The HW lineal has been dead for a while, it didn't even surfaced as a title on the line when Fury fought seferi and pienatia. Why was drugged out when wilder came into the picture?
Look at the scenario critically, you will see the BS in between the lines. Some sections are trying to use the title to boost their argument, hence, they dug it out from the grave.

Well the lineal from most understandings I am familiar with is concerned primarily with the heavyweight division. Traditionally the heavyweight division sits at the very top of the pinnacle in boxing. The heavyweight champ means more than the middle weight champ in many respects.

It makes perfect sense accordingly that the lineal is about the heavyweight division! Just because it is unsaid does not invalidate the idea that the lineal is really about the heavyweights.

The lineal has not been dead, it is something that can be used when necessary. It may be evoked when necessary as an appeal to the fans to assert their power in determining the top dog. Look what the lineal has done presently: AJ, Wilder and Fury are being nudged to clear up the title and the lineal is one way to "nudge."

It just bothers me that people constantly complain about the fans not having power and then when we have a title based in the power of the fans, based on tradition...people are digging it up. The lineal by its very design has never put a pretender as the champ. It depends on the sanctity of beating the best and the fans participation to declare a titlist.

It is beyond stupid to take a tradition that some here have shown has been even before the advent of European boxing, and just declare it is a gimmick. For many moons before Figg there were no weight classes, hence why the lineal really does not apply the same way to all the weight classes as it does the big boys, the top of the division... the biggest meanest SOB in all the land until another lad can lick em!

[Laligalaliga]

Well the lineal from most understandings I am familiar with is concerned primarily with the heavyweight division. Traditionally the heavyweight division sits at the very top of the pinnacle in boxing. The heavyweight champ means more than the middle weight champ in many respects.

It makes perfect sense accordingly that the lineal is about the heavyweight division! Just because it is unsaid does not invalidate the idea that the lineal is really about the heavyweights.

The lineal has not been dead, it is something that can be used when necessary. It may be evoked when necessary as an appeal to the fans to assert their power in determining the top dog. Look what the lineal has done presently: AJ, Wilder and Fury are being nudged to clear up the title and the lineal is one way to "nudge."

It just bothers me that people constantly complain about the fans not having power and then when we have a title based in the power of the fans, based on tradition...people are digging it up. The lineal by its very design has never put a pretender as the champ. It depends on the sanctity of beating the best and the fans participation to declare a titlist.

It is beyond stupid to take a tradition that some here have shown has been even before the advent of European boxing, and just declare it is a gimmick. For many moons before Figg there were no weight classes, hence why the lineal really does not apply the same way to all the weight classes as it does the big boys, the top of the division... the biggest meanest SOB in all the land until another lad can lick em!

Why was it when wilder wanted to fight Fury, some fans dug the lineal out. Why didn't the same fans put it on the line when he fought sefari and penaitia?

[billeau2]

Apples and oranges....and you are reaching.

I spoke about the traditions that cover how titles got passed from champion to champion. You explain to me what the depth of Fury's particular lineage has to do with the depth of the traditions that preside over it.

Exactly. How a 130lb belt is passed along without sanctioning bodies is impossible in an era with sanctioning bodies. There is nothing but sanctioning body divisions and awards and folks trying to shove Heavyweight traditions into it outside of Heavyweight.


Most of what your talking about I don't understand at all. I think you've been indoctrinated to believe bull****. Lineal end? What the **** are you talking about? If lineal ended it'd be over. Lineal does not end. Tyson Fury has Sullivan's belt. That is the point. Vacancies have never and will never end the lineage.

It'd be like saying the Queen ain't the Queen because there was a vacancy at the throne in the past. The **** do you mean? She is the Queen and if Tyson ain't Lineal then someone's ass is because there is no breaks in lineal. Why the **** do you think we're talking about lineal if you believe every lineage is it's own separate entity? That is stupid Jax.

I am reading the response you got to your post from Jax and shaking my head... Hypocracy? does he know what that word means? YOu are trying, among other things, to explain to people who have decided that they do not want to listen, WHY the lineal is a concept engendered by the heavyweight division. Ray Corso spent the better part of years here explaining to the same idiots like Queeny, that the heavyweight division is an OPEN division, technically with no weight limits. The people you are arguing with do not even understand this idea M.

I doubt that Jax is willing to even consider your example of the monarchy. Is this a good analogy? Lets see? What state authority tells the queen/King who gets the throne next... presumably the person put upon the throne has to be the strongest...the best because the present monarch will not be able to issue a corrective from the grave. Finally, like the lineal, if the heredity transmission is smooth, the next in line has the best behind them to guarantee that succession is smooth...then nobody has to even envoke any particular clause. However if there is a problem with the succession, then there are traditions that determine the outcome.

Just like the lineal! When Ali was the champ nobody cared who the lineal was, whether Ali was the lineal, etc. The lineal is called up when necessary, JUST like when there is an issue with succession for the monarchy! In both cases, what makes these mechanisms special is that they do not make an appeal to some external burocracy, they use the strength of tradition that has worked for many many moons.

I often site the Japanese KoRyu ancient arts, the oldest of which have a traceable lineage from the the 1500's (Takenuchi Ryu). The only way these arts are verified, and they are verified by organizations that are fanatical in their need to document and verify...is by the art having a head of succession that is unbroken. There was no government bodies in the anarchy of Feudal Japan... But Tradition sufficed remarkably well. to the point that a fatally wounded Samurai would go so far as to pull a similar ranked, enemy solder aside, and with dying breaths perform the Menkyo Kudan to transfer his art to another succesor so it would not die.

My point is when we say the lineal is traditional, many people here are brainwashed to believe that because alphabet soup is sanctioned by an external agency (not directly involved in the sport), it is more real than traditions that have existed for generations.

Of course the idiots that spread this nonsense delight in doing so... I guess they believe they are doing a service to something?