What if Ali was never exiled?

[soul_survivor]

What if Ali didn't get banned from boxing? Or, alternatively, what if Ali didn't get drafted at all? How would things have been different?

Frazier would never have been champ and Ali would likely have lasted as heavyweight champ till 71/72 but he would not have been the world renowned figure that he became in reality.

[Sugarj]

I think Ali goes on and beats everyone (Still Struggles against Norton and Fraiser) between 68-71 then runs into Foreman for his first loss. One thing we forget is that after Norton and Fraiser, Ali stopped relying on his physical gifts as much and started fighting smarter. 60s Ali would box circles around 70s Ali. But 70s Ali would out-think 60s Ali. And that is because of the losses. I also think he retires way before there are even thoughts of a Spinks let alone Holmes fight.

Side question were the 2nd and 3rd Norton fights as close as people say they were? Because rewatching them i think that Ali did just about enough both times to win.

I can't see Foreman inflicting Ali's first loss. I just don't see him having the sort of 15 round stamina to decision Ali..........and Ali's punch resistance was superb, so I can't see an early knockout either. My money, for a first loss would be to Norton.

As for the last two Norton fights. In fight 2 Ali got a superb lead and had a brilliant last round; but the majority of rounds 6-11 were won by Norton. Close fight. Ali was clearly relieved to get the decision, he hit Bundini after round 12 and seemed very down.

As for fight 3; I did score 7 or 8 rounds to Ali with one perhaps even.....so he was holding on to his title. But it was one of those fights where the rounds Norton won were much much dominant than the rounds Ali shaded.

[Sugarj]

Ali lost twice before 74 and did not dominate the 70's era ,there was no clear better fighter in the 70's . A Foreman rematch may have told us more instead we go 3 Norton fight ,and they were even contraversial.

Frazier landed more significant punches in the rematch ,you may count missed punches ,i dont ! A defensive fighter who is clearly getting hit on the ropes wouldn't be out doing an aggressive fighter that is dictating the pace either.

Ali had a good run from 74 to 77 but thats not dominating an entire decade. Adding up who beat who and so forth based on how everyone did with eachother ...

Ali
Foreman
Frazier


Would be the top 3 even though Frazier was done after 73 and Norton arguably had Ali's number that is the order it would be even though anyone could beat anyone on any given night in the 70's .

Ali was undefeated between March 71 and March 73. Then undefeated between March 73 and Feb 78. Near as dammit 7 years. High activity too.

Not too shabby?

[juggernaut666]

Ali was undefeated between March 71 and March 73. Then undefeated between March 73 and Feb 78. Near as dammit 7 years. High activity too.

Not too shabby?

I consider THAT Ali to be more formidable for logical reasons already covered ,and HIS 70's competition shows that .

Folley out of prime 200 pounds ,slow footed
Mildenberger 195 pounds cut easy ,no power
Williams Handicapped / disease inflicted injury , past prime

LISTON Not even going there

These are Ali's top 60's wins .... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

70's Ali would not remotely struggle or get dropped by a 180 /190 pounder Cooper ,his physical appeared stronger ,speed loss was minimal with weight gain , he was harder to hurt and most of all he became a thinker , these are facts . If anyone wants to think Ali of 1967 was better because he ran around the ring more its better them than me!

[BritishBoxing92]

What if Ali didn't get banned from boxing? Or, alternatively, what if Ali didn't get drafted at all? How would things have been different?

who knows really maybe the frazier fight would have happened earlier and he would have lost earlier or went on to retain his championship longer then lost to an opponent he was not expected to lose to sooner or later?

think about it the possibilities could have been endless..

[Sugarj]

I consider THAT Ali to be more formidable for logical reasons already covered ,and HIS 70's competition shows that .

Folley out of prime 200 pounds ,slow footed
Mildenberger 195 pounds cut easy ,no power
Williams Handicapped / disease inflicted injury , past prime

LISTON Not even going there

These are Ali's top 60's wins .... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

70's Ali would not remotely struggle or get dropped by a 180 /190 pounder Cooper ,his physical appeared stronger ,speed loss was minimal with weight gain , he was harder to hurt and most of all he became a thinker , these are facts . If anyone wants to think Ali of 1967 was better because he ran around the ring more its better them than me!

60s Ali vs 70s Ali wasn't what I was addressing. More, his actual dominance in the 70s.

I personally think that various versions of Ali from both decades would have differing success against his actual rivals.

For example I'd pick 1964 Ali to do a much better job against 1973 Norton. But I think 1975 Ali would surely do a much better job against Mildenberger.

His physical prime was almost certainly 66/67.....though if he had carried on fighting he may have been improved still by 1969.

Chuvalo and Patterson rated the 65/66 version of Ali as being superior to the 1972 Ali......He was a touch faster, more elusive and mobile.

[Syf]

I will assume our discussion is over. Great sharing ideas.

Btw? You need to join a think tank and teach those fools that your simplistic, non deterministic, analysis can isolate any problem into simple constant inputs.

Lol... this guy.


War Zaroku.. war his dog

[Syf]

I just go by the eye test. Muhammad Ali passes the eye test better for me in the sixties than he do in the seventies.

His legs his Mobility, his speed, his judgement of distance, was all Superior prior to the Banning

I trust my ability to evaluate skill and form

We lost out on much of Muhammad Ali's Prime because he was banned.

Being buzzed by Lucky shots is not enough of a factor for me to discount the eye test

[Zaroku]

I recall a dream about this topic about 20 years ago so it must be true!!!!

......you can listen to juggyjerk and agree with his "veteran analysis" based on NOTHING but his opinion which is based on NOTHING!

Ray is great! Awesome!

[Zaroku]

Lol... this guy.


War Zaroku.. war his dog

He is full of crap. Change one thing and other things change.

He tried to isolate cause and effect. In a closed system, like a lab, this is possible for very simple things only.

I listen to the quants guys at work, re working their financial models based on their guesses if the residual fears American's will have based on Orlando, current immigration, Saudi ownership vs Chinese ownership of US debt, and how that will impact the price of Russian crude oil.

These guys are all over the place.