Greats of the past Vs Modern heavies.

[chirorickyp]

i believe if Tyson were to come out of retirement now and have the drive he had in the 80's he could have comeback better then Foreman, because lets face it if Tyson had the drive he had in the 80's then very few of todays Heavy's would be able to challenge him.

I'm not talking 80's version of Tyson vs todays Heavy's I'm talking about today's Tyson with motivation vs Today's heavy's.

At 54? Come on man.

[chirorickyp]

It's about Ken Norton - the guy who bailed out anytime he faced someone with a punch.

The guy who was used as a punching bag w/ legs by Quarry in sparring. But willing took a fight w/ Quarry, and went wild when he faced that faded hero many years after he should have retired.

The guy who gave up whenever someone pushed back.

Living proof that steroids shrink your balls.

He was the prototype for Lennox Lewis.

Look him up. Very famous fighter. Had some epic, epic matches.

This is completely false! Are you thinking of someone else?

[billeau2]

Good points. I did however have to look up epistemological.

Lol. My old man taught me to do so... Great habit.

[The Old LefHook]

Marciano's chowder came from the ground, pallys, not from some pond.

[QueensburyRules]

This is completely false! Are you thinking of someone else?

- -Rusty Bucket up to his eyeballs in steroids and Viagra.

The only era he knows.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Kind of a rude remark don't you think??

Are you confusing me for the guy who insulted Jerry Quarry?

[Rusty Tromboni]

lol man, Rocky was a small heavyweight, even back then - but he's not close to Haglers size lol.

So even simple math is hard for you?

Not trying to sound like a dick, but Hagler and Marciano were the same height. Maybe Marciano was an inch taller. There was a 7" reach disparity... FAVORING Hagler.

Marciano weighed 185 for the Walcott rematch and 188 on his last outing (but had weighed less when a ranked Heavyweight). Hagler was 160 lbs. in his rematch w/ Antuofermo.

Ali was 6'3" 78" reach, 216 pounds for Quarry II and Rumble in the Jungle. He was lighter in his first fight w/ Frazier (I think that was him at his best), but swelled up to 225 pounds for Manilla (his most epic match).

Again, pick the numbers which are bigger:
1 or 5?
7 or 10?
25 or 31?

No offense, but sometimes it feels like you argue just too argue. This time you fell into your own trap.

when he retired he was over 250 lbs.

What a hack! Duran didn't even need to retire to pull that off! He did it between fights!

I guessyou want me to believe Duran is naturally bigger than Hagler, too?

Where should we start? His wrists? His ankles? His earlobes? That part of the lip beneath the nose?

Rocky had a thick bone structure, thicker wrists than just about any heavyweight ever. Being 188 lvs and running 12 miles in boots every day is different than being 240 but running 1 mile every day. Marciano's strength was his stamina, he even said it - he never wanted to get tired and he knew he was never gonna be the fastest or slickest guy, but he could work the hardest. In his book his trainers said this guy would start packing on muscle so fast they limited his strength training to mostly just a heavy bag and wood chopping.

Replace "Rocky" with "Hagler" and the comment becomes even MORE true.

Hagler also certainly used the steamroom (and more). For Rocky, making 175 was possible too. But why eat a hamburger when you got steak waiting at home?

If you actually followed his career he knocked out quite a few heavyweights, just his best comp at the time happened to be high level light heavies.

I know his career as well as anyone here.

I also know weight cutting, and bulking up better than anyone here. I spent most of my life dedicated to it (and know enough to tell people NOT to do it).

The guys Marciano fought WERE Heavyweights. Moore was bigger than Rocky when he entered the ring. Same as Charles. Just look at them and the scales.

Sure, he was bigger at 25 than they had been. He could have bulked up over them. But at that time he was spotting them weight.

Show me a physics book that provides a caveat about how mass is made and I'll leave this discussion. You can't. That is why guys bulk up. That is why fat slobs in the bologna bi.tch tit division are lethal when the little munchkins who look like they're cut from marble have matches that seem to go one forever.

I'm saying this to compliment Marciano. He beat Moore and Walcott at their best. Charles wasn't that far off from his best. Though, I dunno if I'd pick Marciano to regularly beat a prime Charles. It would probably take at least one try. He also beat them simply by wanting it more. They broke, he didn't.

[TonyGe]

Are you confusing me for the guy who insulted Jerry Quarry?

That would be who??

[Rusty Tromboni]

That would be who??

Hmmm


I'll give you a hint.... his name rhymes with PonyDee.

Second hint... it's not Curtis Harper (at least this time, but it looked like the kinda post he'd make).

Third hint... YOU know him.


Probably you'll need some time to figure it out. But you know where to find me if you need more hints.

[Rusty Tromboni]

yeah people will never look outside their epistemological mansion and see this point. I try to give examples that are unfamiliar, but I might as well be using Shirley temple as an example...

If we look at an ape, it can weigh anywhere from 90 to 200 pounds. But we all know that Apes are stronger than human beings. If we look at a pit bull it can be relatively small and, in fact, pit bulls do not have the bite strength of a lot of other breeds like shephards, but the size is in the neck, the jaws, etc.

If we further look at a fighter from the past like Fitzzimons, Who had a great punch when the emphasis in fighting was not in having one punch power, he was built like a heavyweight from the waist up, with two pencils as legs...He weighed in for his fights around 160-70 pounds.

When we look at mass we are looking at things like bone density as well as muscle mass. And fighters were taught to come in light and agile.

So weight may have some importance, but it always has to be qualified against these and other considerations. We also have to qualify the actual skills we see fighters show, on tape, when we can.

I've spent most of my life concerend with this matter.

Weight matters tremendously.

Look at how St. Pierre handled the otherwordly talent of Sean Sherk vs. how he handled the journeyman of journeymen Michael Bisping.

Look at how Sherk handled Nick Diaz vs. Frankie Edgar.

So it's also about how you use it. But it clearly matters.