OFFICIAL: Donald Trump thread.

[Left Hook Tua]

Jr....Was a complete failure as president.

He did enough damage.....

You're entitled to your opinion on the guy.

But it's a fact: obama never 3% growth in any year

Bush several including 4%+ once

You can call bush whatever you want

But saying obama saved the economy is horse shiet

The economy was already recovering by his 2nd year

His policies barely had any affect yet

The stagnant growth for last 5-6 years is because of him.

[ИATAS]

Cool deal. I'm a bit dry too, so I'll be sure to be polite.

Cool. Also just an FYI, I'm going to make this post as short as possible for you and only talk Betsy DeVos and Education. Nothing more nothing less.

I have to say though you are the only Trump supporter in this thread willing and probably capable of taking on in-depth discussions, so by default you get my respect. It's not easy- it takes time and a lot of thinking power, the latter unfortunately is not something many others are willing or able to do. So hats off to you.

My intention originally was to try and understand what logical reasons an intelligent Trump supporter still has left to hold onto, and I've always maintained it's important to try to understand those you are in disagreement with, try to put yourself in their shoes, etc. I've always believed most of us in this country are in the same boat and we have more in common than differences. And since you alone have stepped up to the plate, I'm challenging you to explain yourself and your stance- if I smell a bullshït response, or perhaps sidestepping a question, I'm asking you to elaborate, make logical explanations to your statements, etc. So please don't assume I'm doing this for no reason, in the end we should both benefit from this discussion.

I quoted the above part so you'd get a Notification and see I replied. To save space, from here on out I'll quote you in bold red. I won't ever use color in my answers. If that annoys you, let me know.

I'll give it a whirl. I'll continue to respond in traditional quotes.

That is exactly how I see it. I have no other explanation how you can support DeVos, the person who has openly stated that the abolition of the department of Education is fine with her!

That statement of hers about abolition says to me she has an open mind. That's a good thing.

Right off the bat I'm whiffing a bit of a BS response here and I'll tell you why.

DeVos saying she wants the department abolished predates her even considering the job. In fact as I mentioned, she had stated she never once thought about taking on this job until it was presented to her by Trump. Ronald Reagan also said the same thing- he wanted to abolish the education department. Hardly a new concept among conservatives and it doesn't have anything to do with being open minded.

I provided quite a bit of details on her own personal motivations for seeing the education department abolished; her religious beliefs, business/family ties, etc. How then can this tell you she has an open mind? Don't answer yet, we'll circle back to this...

The job, as far as I care, is to get our kids' test scores higher than they are when compared to kids educated in other countries. That's a good measurement.

The reasons for these countless standardized tests have their own agendas behind them but I'll get to that later. For now I'll take this at face value.

Test scores is your primary concern here? Ok. In all fields or just the areas we are lacking in, such as science and mathematics?

Because let me tell you something - In mathematics, the average test scores for children in Conservative Christian schools was found to be significantly lower than that of public schools by recent research. Science, in particular biology, were also typically lower than that of public schools. They were similar in most other regards and were slightly higher in reading but not necessarily reading comprehension or critical thinking (often much lower than public schools). Evolution is not taught at all in many of these schools and others briefly present Evolution as an "alternative fact". That is severely hindering basic understanding of life. Remember, this is what DaVos wants, publicly funded Christian schools (and private & charter schools as well).

Private schools in general, excluding religious schools, were found typically better than public schools almost across the board, and there are quite a few reasons why that is (generally speaking - better funded, better/higher paid teachers, smaller classrooms, social/economic factors and so on).

If you want test scores to improve, we don't need more private schools, that will only woden the gap from the top and bottom further. We need to make our public schools better by updating our school system and implement things that we already know works - smaller classrooms, better teachers, criteria, learning materials and so on.

You mentioned our test scores are behind other educated countries. Why are they excelling above us? Private schools, charter schools and religious schools? Let's take a quick look at some of the top counties for education:

Finland has the best overall - they are #1 in Science and #2 in Math.
Some other top counties ahead of the US:
Hong Kong
Canada
Taiwan
Estonia
Japan
Korea

There are many different ranking systems, but let's just take the best case scenario which had 16 other industrialized countries who scored above us in science, and 23 scored above us in math. There are others where we are lower but for sale of argument let's use this since the rankings do not matter.

A MAJOR thing to note here is that researchers found the United States has one of the biggest gaps between high- and low-performing students in an industrialized nation, while Finland has one of the smallest. Meaning students in Finland perform remarkably well, regardless of the school they attend. It's across the board, unlike the US

In the US there is a huge gap between students who go to to the best rich/private schools and those who go to the worst/poor public schools. That is a classism issue. That doesn't happen in Finland.

What makes Finland so good? Private schools? Charter schools? Not at all, in fact private schools do not exist in Finland (and even the very few independent schools they have are publicly funded.)

-Students have light homework loads.
-Finnish schools do not have classes for gifted students.
-Finland uses very little standardized testing.
-Children do not start school until age 7.
-Finland has a comprehensive preschool program that emphasizes “self-reflection” and socializing, not academics.
-Grades are not given until high school, and even then, class rankings are not compiled.
-Teachers must have master’s degrees.
Becoming a teacher in Finland is highly competitive. Just 10% of Finnish college graduates are accepted into the teacher training program; as a result, teaching is a high-status profession.
-Students are separated into academic and vocational tracks during the last three years of high school. About 50% go into each track.
-Diagnostic testing of students is used early and frequently. If a student is in need of extra help, intensive intervention is provided.
-Groups of teachers visit each others’ classes to observe their colleagues at work. Teachers also get one afternoon per week for professional development.
-School funding is higher for the middle school years, the years when children are most in danger of dropping out.
-College is free in Finland.

Of course, Finland is a small country and we cannot simply say "let's be like Finland!" but clearly there are things that work and we see many of these things in the other countries that rank above the US. It isn't private schools or "school choice". Probably most importantly though in regards to Finland:

"Another area where Finland is ****geneous is in school funding. All of Finland’s schools receive the same per-pupil funding, in contrast to the United States where school funding is based upon a complex formula that uses a local-funding component and creates inequities between affluent and poor communities."

All schools are getting the same funding. They aren't having high gaps between rich schools and poor schools as a result (there are no rich and poor schools).

There are only a very small number of independent schools in Finland, they barely exist and even they too are all publicly funded. None of which are allowed to charge tuition fees. There are no private universities, either. There are no private universities, either. This means that practically every person in Finland attends public school, whether for pre-K or a Ph.D.

Do you know what country used to be considered one of the top on education? Sweden. Do you know what happened to them recently?

Check out this article (you can find a lot of data on this online):
Sweden’s School Choice Disaster
Advocates for school choice might be shocked to see how badly the country’s experiment with vouchers failed.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._friedman.html

More charter schools, more choice, less bureaucratic oversight, right? Nope. Big-time failure. Sad!

Trump’s voucher plan? See Sweden.

As to how it's done, I dont care. What I'm tired of is seeing spending going up and up, and the scores/rankings going down and down. The status quo is not working, and thus changes must be made.

That isn't an accurate statement though. Our scoring has remained relatively the same for years and we're always right in the middle of the pack out of the industrialized countries no matter what standardized tests we go by.

Hell, an interesting truth is Alabama, one of the states near or at the bottom when it comes to Education, the average student in Alabama is better at mathematics than the majority of the world. It just seems bad to us because 15 (at least) countries are better than us at math. What has dipped in test scores is our lower end students. These test scores have fallen over the years in both math and science. You're thinking of TIMSS. Here you can see the Basic has maintained itself whereas below Basic is what has dipped:



And where are these students going to school? Underfunded schools typically in urban or poor cities and counties. There is a direct correlation with lack of funding and these results. Underpaid teachers, overcrowded classrooms, double-schedule schools, broken-down school buildings, inadequate facilities and a number of other failings.

The same research found science has increased:

Between 2009 and 2015, the average scores of both fourth- and eight-graders improved from 150 to 154 (on a 0-to-300 scale), although for 12th-graders the average score remained at 150. In 2015, 38% of fourth-graders, 34% of eighth-graders and 22% of 12th-graders were rated proficient or better in science; 24% of fourth-graders, 32% of eighth-graders and 40% of 12th-graders were rated “below basic.”

So what you said in regards to scores is inaccurate.

Regarding spending going up and up, this is misleading. The endless standardized tests are used as a lever against traditional K-12 public schools to divert their funding to largely for-profit charter schools that often specialize in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math (STEM) subjects, as part of Obama’s corporate-directed campaign to “train an army of new teachers in [STEM] subject areas.” Trump is simply accelerating the decades long campaign of this philosophy, which has been going on for, well as I said, decades. You may recall I mentioned Obama had already been shifting a lot of money, and policies that favor, Charter schools. How you do not see this is a problem between both parties, and is quite literally class war, I do not understand.

The data is there and it shows the shift of responsibility for the crisis in higher education from the government itself to the shoulders of colleges, students and their families, and all the while will systematically defund schools in low-income communities. From Reagan to Bush to Clinton to Obama and now Trump. Follow the money I told you in an earlier post that you did not comment on. In choosing Betsy DeVos for secretary of education, Trump has selected someone with a clear record of seeking to destroy public education. Open mind you said? More accurately following the plan. Trump and DaVos are doing nothing new here, the are following the same trends, only accelerating it. This is part of the reason why I said "blind support". It's right in front of you yet you refuse to analyze the data that is showing you exactly what's happening.

The mantra of “school choice” means that the capitalist market should determine how and whether or not students get educated. Parents, ate the “consumers,” who will have a choice as to where they send their children to be educated and evaluate what they purchased. If they’re not happy with the school giving the education they purchased, they can look for another one, as if this were any other product, like a pair of jeans. Of course, just as when people shop, those who are wealthier can afford better products, in this case, schools. The working class and poor will not be able to afford quality education. This is the opposite of countries like Finland and getting similar to the disaster in Sweden, but far worse if we have it their way. You said you're concerned with getting the test scores up. This will not accomplish it- it will only woden the gap further between the top and bottom student while the middle or "basic" will get smaller and smaller. If you are OK with that, then your main concern is not that of raising the test scores and getting our country on top of the rest of the industrialized world.

So while spending in the department of education has increased, the money isn't going into public schools as well as it should, as I've explained above it's largely been aimed at destabilizing public schools.

Who says the problem isn't the Federal Government?

See everything above.

Currently, public school funding comes from the federal government (10%), local government (45%, mostly through property taxes) and state government (45%). Much of federal funding has been for programs to assist low-income or disabled students. When these funds are ended, it will devastate whole working class communities.

As to state funding, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities notes, “Most states provide less support per student for elementary and secondary schools—in some cases, much less—than before the Great Recession.”

But we let a Federal bureaucracy decide what every kid has to know.

Apply the 10th Amendment, and go back to individual States deciding what's best for their citizens in terms of education.

As for college, leave that up to the 50 individual States as well. If some States want to offer taxpayer-funded college educations, let them. But for those States who don't, their citizens don't pay for it.

Think like RomneyCare. If Massachusetts wants government healthcare, they can do it. But I'm against forcing all 50 States into it.

But that is not what Trump and DeVos have in mind. What they want is parents to buy the education they can afford, leaving the well off families able to buy the best products and the working class and poor left behind.

If DaVos had the American people's nest interest at heart, she would be trying to improve the education system not destroy it.

-Is she qualified for the job? No.
-Does she have first hand experience? No.
-Does she have her own personal motives and agendas? Yes.
-Has she shown that she even cares about the job? No.

I think she's just a qualified as any of her predecessors. She has a completely different background than them, that's for sure. But that in no way disqualifies her. She has a different perspective, both with private schools and the private sector.

Sure, a completely different background as in literally no experience whatsoever then yes, agreed.

That's resume enhancement if you ask me.

LOL man, that is some primetime spin. A page straight out of Bill O'Reilly's playbook!

She went to better schools, so she saw what works. And she worked in the private sector, and they everything better than lifer politicians.

How would she know what's better? She was born rich. She's so out of touch with reality and the common people it's almost comical. She will literally take money out of public schools and put it into private schools, she has no context to understand what most of American children experience at school and doesn't understand financial burden.

Everyone has motives. I trust private sector folks alot more than I trust lifer politicians, so I'm not worried a bit about her motives.

Do you trust someone who wants to advance God's kingdom? Seems like you side stepped the questions on separation of church and state and her religious motivates. You think that's a good for for Department of education? by spending millions to promote the use of taxpayer dollars on private and religious schools, prop up sectarian teachings with taxpayer money? No conflicts here. She's "open minded".

Plus, she's already rich. That's a plus. It beats lifer politicians who enter Government not rich and leave after doing 'public service' better off than the average taxpayer.

Wait, what?

I'll be glad to continue this or discuss anything else you brought up. But please, just one (or two) at a time, please. We got plenty of time. The thread isn't going dead anytime soon.

That's fine. If you want to stick with DeVos that's fine but you skipped a whole lot of my post about DeVos. That entire post was mostly about her.

[siablo14]

Lol these guys don't even realize that Obama slowed the recovery. Not caused the recovery.

It takes years for policies to have effect.

The economy slowly recovering the first couple years of Obama administration wasn't because of him.

The stagnant growth in past years is because of him.

Explain. Provide links to support your claim too.

[siablo14]

Cool. Also just an FYI, I'm going to make this post as short as possible for you and only talk Betsy DeVos and Education. Nothing more nothing less.

I have to say though you are the only Trump supporter in this thread willing and probably capable of taking on in-depth discussions, so by default you get my respect. It's not easy- it takes time and a lot of thinking power, the latter unfortunately is not something many others are willing or able to do. So hats off to you.

My intention originally was to try and understand what logical reasons an intelligent Trump supporter still has left to hold onto, and I've always maintained it's important to try to understand those you are in disagreement with, try to put yourself in their shoes, etc. I've always believed most of us in this country are in the same boat and we have more in common than differences. And since you alone have stepped up to the plate, I'm challenging you to explain yourself and your stance- if I smell a bullshït response, or perhaps sidestepping a question, I'm asking you to elaborate, make logical explanations to your statements, etc. So please don't assume I'm doing this for no reason, in the end we should both benefit from this discussion.



I'll give it a whirl. I'll continue to respond in traditional quotes.




Right off the bat I'm whiffing a bit of a BS response here and I'll tell you why.

DeVos saying she wants the department abolished predates her even considering the job. In fact as I mentioned, she had stated she never once thought about taking on this job until it was presented to her by Trump. Ronald Reagan also said the same thing- he wanted to abolish the education department. Hardly a new concept among conservatives and it doesn't have anything to do with being open minded.

I provided quite a bit of details on her own personal motivations for seeing the education department abolished; her religious beliefs, business/family ties, etc. How then can this tell you she has an open mind? Don't answer yet, we'll circle back to this...



The reasons for these countless standardized tests have their own agendas behind them but I'll get to that later. For now I'll take this at face value.

Test scores is your primary concern here? Ok. In all fields or just the areas we are lacking in, such as science and mathematics?

Because let me tell you something - In mathematics, the average test scores for children in Conservative Christian schools was found to be significantly lower than that of public schools by recent research. Science, in particular biology, were also typically lower than that of public schools. They were similar in most other regards and were slightly higher in reading but not necessarily reading comprehension or critical thinking (often much lower than public schools). Evolution is not taught at all in many of these schools and others briefly present Evolution as an "alternative fact". That is severely hindering basic understanding of life. Remember, this is what DaVos wants, publicly funded Christian schools (and private & charter schools as well).

Private schools in general, excluding religious schools, were found typically better than public schools almost across the board, and there are quite a few reasons why that is (generally speaking - better funded, better/higher paid teachers, smaller classrooms, social/economic factors and so on).

If you want test scores to improve, we don't need more private schools, that will only woden the gap from the top and bottom further. We need to make our public schools better by updating our school system and implement things that we already know works - smaller classrooms, better teachers, criteria, learning materials and so on.

You mentioned our test scores are behind other educated countries. Why are they excelling above us? Private schools, charter schools and religious schools? Let's take a quick look at some of the top counties for education:

Finland has the best overall - they are #1 in Science and #2 in Math.
Some other top counties ahead of the US:
Hong Kong
Canada
Taiwan
Estonia
Japan
Korea

There are many different ranking systems, but let's just take the best case scenario which had 16 other industrialized countries who scored above us in science, and 23 scored above us in math. There are others where we are lower but for sale of argument let's use this since the rankings do not matter.

A MAJOR thing to note here is that researchers found the United States has one of the biggest gaps between high- and low-performing students in an industrialized nation, while Finland has one of the smallest. Meaning students in Finland perform remarkably well, regardless of the school they attend. It's across the board, unlike the US

In the US there is a huge gap between students who go to to the best rich/private schools and those who go to the worst/poor public schools. That is a classism issue. That doesn't happen in Finland.

What makes Finland so good? Private schools? Charter schools? Not at all, in fact private schools do not exist in Finland (and even the very few independent schools they have are publicly funded.)

-Students have light homework loads.
-Finnish schools do not have classes for gifted students.
-Finland uses very little standardized testing.
-Children do not start school until age 7.
-Finland has a comprehensive preschool program that emphasizes “self-reflection” and socializing, not academics.
-Grades are not given until high school, and even then, class rankings are not compiled.
-Teachers must have master’s degrees.
Becoming a teacher in Finland is highly competitive. Just 10% of Finnish college graduates are accepted into the teacher training program; as a result, teaching is a high-status profession.
-Students are separated into academic and vocational tracks during the last three years of high school. About 50% go into each track.
-Diagnostic testing of students is used early and frequently. If a student is in need of extra help, intensive intervention is provided.
-Groups of teachers visit each others’ classes to observe their colleagues at work. Teachers also get one afternoon per week for professional development.
-School funding is higher for the middle school years, the years when children are most in danger of dropping out.
-College is free in Finland.

Of course, Finland is a small country and we cannot simply say "let's be like Finland!" but clearly there are things that work and we see many of these things in the other countries that rank above the US. It isn't private schools or "school choice". Probably most importantly though in regards to Finland:

"Another area where Finland is ****geneous is in school funding. All of Finland’s schools receive the same per-pupil funding, in contrast to the United States where school funding is based upon a complex formula that uses a local-funding component and creates inequities between affluent and poor communities."

All schools are getting the same funding. They aren't having high gaps between rich schools and poor schools as a result (there are no rich and poor schools).

There are only a very small number of independent schools in Finland, they barely exist and even they too are all publicly funded. None of which are allowed to charge tuition fees. There are no private universities, either. There are no private universities, either. This means that practically every person in Finland attends public school, whether for pre-K or a Ph.D.

Do you know what country used to be considered one of the top on education? Sweden. Do you know what happened to them recently?

Check out this article (you can find a lot of data on this online):
Sweden’s School Choice Disaster
Advocates for school choice might be shocked to see how badly the country’s experiment with vouchers failed.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._friedman.html

More charter schools, more choice, less bureaucratic oversight, right? Nope. Big-time failure. Sad!

Trump’s voucher plan? See Sweden.




That isn't an accurate statement though. Our scoring has remained relatively the same for years and we're always right in the middle of the pack out of the industrialized countries no matter what standardized tests we go by.

Hell, an interesting truth is Alabama, one of the states near or at the bottom when it comes to Education, the average student in Alabama is better at mathematics than the majority of the world. It just seems bad to us because 15 (at least) countries are better than us at math. What has dipped in test scores is our lower end students. These test scores have fallen over the years in both math and science. You're thinking of TIMSS. Here you can see the Basic has maintained itself whereas below Basic is what has dipped:



And where are these students going to school? Underfunded schools typically in urban or poor cities and counties. There is a direct correlation with lack of funding and these results. Underpaid teachers, overcrowded classrooms, double-schedule schools, broken-down school buildings, inadequate facilities and a number of other failings.

The same research found science has increased:

Between 2009 and 2015, the average scores of both fourth- and eight-graders improved from 150 to 154 (on a 0-to-300 scale), although for 12th-graders the average score remained at 150. In 2015, 38% of fourth-graders, 34% of eighth-graders and 22% of 12th-graders were rated proficient or better in science; 24% of fourth-graders, 32% of eighth-graders and 40% of 12th-graders were rated “below basic.”

So what you said in regards to scores is inaccurate.

Regarding spending going up and up, this is misleading. The endless standardized tests are used as a lever against traditional K-12 public schools to divert their funding to largely for-profit charter schools that often specialize in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math (STEM) subjects, as part of Obama’s corporate-directed campaign to “train an army of new teachers in [STEM] subject areas.” Trump is simply accelerating the decades long campaign of this philosophy, which has been going on for, well as I said, decades. You may recall I mentioned Obama had already been shifting a lot of money, and policies that favor, Charter schools. How you do not see this is a problem between both parties, and is quite literally class war, I do not understand.

The data is there and it shows the shift of responsibility for the crisis in higher education from the government itself to the shoulders of colleges, students and their families, and all the while will systematically defund schools in low-income communities. From Reagan to Bush to Clinton to Obama and now Trump. Follow the money I told you in an earlier post that you did not comment on. In choosing Betsy DeVos for secretary of education, Trump has selected someone with a clear record of seeking to destroy public education. Open mind you said? More accurately following the plan. Trump and DaVos are doing nothing new here, the are following the same trends, only accelerating it. This is part of the reason why I said "blind support". It's right in front of you yet you refuse to analyze the data that is showing you exactly what's happening.

The mantra of “school choice” means that the capitalist market should determine how and whether or not students get educated. Parents, ate the “consumers,” who will have a choice as to where they send their children to be educated and evaluate what they purchased. If they’re not happy with the school giving the education they purchased, they can look for another one, as if this were any other product, like a pair of jeans. Of course, just as when people shop, those who are wealthier can afford better products, in this case, schools. The working class and poor will not be able to afford quality education. This is the opposite of countries like Finland and getting similar to the disaster in Sweden, but far worse if we have it their way. You said you're concerned with getting the test scores up. This will not accomplish it- it will only woden the gap further between the top and bottom student while the middle or "basic" will get smaller and smaller. If you are OK with that, then your main concern is not that of raising the test scores and getting our country on top of the rest of the industrialized world.

So while spending in the department of education has increased, the money isn't going into public schools as well as it should, as I've explained above it's largely been aimed at destabilizing public schools.





See everything above.

Currently, public school funding comes from the federal government (10%), local government (45%, mostly through property taxes) and state government (45%). Much of federal funding has been for programs to assist low-income or disabled students. When these funds are ended, it will devastate whole working class communities.

As to state funding, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities notes, “Most states provide less support per student for elementary and secondary schools—in some cases, much less—than before the Great Recession.”




But that is not what Trump and DeVos have in mind. What they want is parents to buy the education they can afford, leaving the well off families able to buy the best products and the working class and poor left behind.

If DaVos had the American people's nest interest at heart, she would be trying to improve the education system not destroy it.



Sure, a completely different background as in literally no experience whatsoever then yes, agreed.



LOL man, that is some primetime spin. A page straight out of Bill O'Reilly's playbook!



How would she know what's better? She was born rich. She's so out of touch with reality and the common people it's almost comical. She will literally take money out of public schools and put it into private schools, she has no context to understand what most of American children experience at school and doesn't understand financial burden.



Do you trust someone who wants to advance God's kingdom? Seems like you side stepped the questions on separation of church and state and her religious motivates. You think that's a good for for Department of education? by spending millions to promote the use of taxpayer dollars on private and religious schools, prop up sectarian teachings with taxpayer money? No conflicts here. She's "open minded".



Wait, what?




That's fine. If you want to stick with DeVos that's fine but you skipped a whole lot of my post about DeVos. That entire post was mostly about her.

Great read. Stated your opinion and provided studies and stats to support it. 1bad65 replies were a bit thin but that's expected because he isn't a well-read individual. I am enjoying this back and forth because I am learn some new info. Thanks to Natas.

[1bad65]

Yeah you go ahead and believe all of that.

While I try and set you up on a hunt'n expedition with Dick Cheney or is he just look'n for a new heart ?

Now I'm not sure ???

Wow, what an effective rebuttal.

How can anyone argue against such logic and facts???

[1bad65]

Before I offer up a response to your last reply, I do ask for a few source citations.

As you can see, I'm not nit-picking. I'm only asking the specific assertions central to my case be proved.

Again, thanks for the discussion and kind words. I'll be civil as long as I'm not insulted, disrespected, etc. Thx again.

In mathematics, the average test scores for children in Conservative Christian schools was found to be significantly lower than that of public schools by recent research. Science, in particular biology, were also typically lower than that of public schools.

Sources, please.

Remember, this is what DaVos wants, publicly funded Christian schools (and private & charter schools as well).

But that is not what Trump and DeVos have in mind. What they want is parents to buy the education they can afford, leaving the well off families able to buy the best products and the working class and poor left behind.

Source citations showing they have said this is their plan, please.

Regarding spending going up and up, this is misleading.

Please source anytime(s) in the lat 40 or so years that we've seen education spending cut on the Federal level. All my life I've seen it grow and grow and grow....

Do you trust someone who wants to advance God's kingdom? Seems like you side stepped the questions on separation of church and state and her religious motivates. You think that's a good for for Department of education? by spending millions to promote the use of taxpayer dollars on private and religious schools, prop up sectarian teachings with taxpayer money? No conflicts here. She's "open minded".

That's fine. If you want to stick with DeVos that's fine but you skipped a whole lot of my post about DeVos. That entire post was mostly about her.

Who cares about her, if she's rich, Christian, etc. As long as she's not a criminal, I don't care.

She's had a lifetime of success. And success outside of being a lifer politician.

Why are you so opposed to putting people with records of success in positions where we need solutions and where lifer politicians have repeatedly failed?

Or put another way; at what point do you admit lifer politicians and more Gov't spending aren't the answer and we must try a new approach? (Remember, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over an expecting a different result)

So while spending in the department of education has increased, the money isn't going into public schools as well as it should, as I've explained above it's largely been aimed at destabilizing public schools.

Which kinda proves my point that a bloated Federal bureaucracy might be the problem, doesn't it?



I'll await those sources, as scores are key data we need sourced before going on.

That, and the plans you assert have been touted by DeVos and Trump. I've not heard the plans you cited, so I'm curious what you'll present in that regard.

[1bad65]

Ca. Judge Blocks Pinnochio's Cutoff Of Money For Sanctuary Cities.

You guys gotta be tired of all this win'n ???

PS: I love Ca !

That 'judge' is an Obama bundler.

"Orrick, the so-called shopped judge, raised “at least” $200,000 for Barack Obama’s first campaign for president in 2008, according to Public Citizen.

He raised another $30,800 for “committees supporting Barack Obama.”

Orrick’s work paid off.

In 2012, Orrick was nominated by President Obama to be a United States District Judge for the United States District Court for the Northern District of California. He was confirmed in 2013.

Orrick based his ruling in part on Trump’s and Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ “public comments,” according to Fox News, and arguments filed with court.

“Federal funding that bears no meaningful relationship to immigration enforcement cannot be threatened merely because a jurisdiction chooses an immigration enforcement strategy of which the president disapproves,” the Obama bundler declared."

Source, full article:
http://ussanews.com/News1/2017/04/26...ry-city-order/

I guess judges being impartial and non-partisan isn't happening in CA.

[BERNIE'S CORNER]

My mind on my money and Bernie on my mind.....

Keep do'n your homework.

[1bad65]

My mind on my money and Bernie on my mind.....

I replied solely to provide additional, relevant facts to the topic at hand.

Yes, a judge blocked Trump's order as you said. I simply cited relevant facts about said judge showing he is hardly neutral and is actually on Team D.

Let me guess, you have nothing to say about the fact this 'judge' is a known Team D bundler, do you.....

[1bad65]

Keep do'n your homework.

Someone has to, since your side obviously doesn't do it.

After all, just last week you cited old news that had already been discredited.

It's a tough job keeping grubers like you up to speed. He didn't call you folks "stupid" for nothing.