8 year Iraq war worth the cost?

[Walt Liquor]

You have a picture of a tyrannical and abusive despot, a sponsorer of terrorism, an enemy of freedom and a murderer and torturer of "his" own people as your avatar. Your avatar describes this monster as a "hero". I think you have forfeited any right to this discussion with your hare-brained declaration of support for a murderous thug.

Iraq enjoys free elections despite the threat and actuality of violence by religious fascists for participants. Their latest election last year had a turnout of 62%. To put this in perspective the turnout in the last US presidential election was the highest it has been since 1968 and they still only managed to mobilize 57% of the electorate. And that's without the threat of kidnapping, violence, bombing, murder.
These debates are muddied by moronic support for tyrants as a misguided expression of anti-Americanism and by baffling belief in conspiracy theories.

Only responding to your response to me.

1) i do not believe those figures
2) the united states of america and great britian are not the world's problem solvers. The focus is misguided without a doubt. There is a cost/reward for every action, from raising children to international politics.
So fukin what if iraq has a good voter turnout for elections overseen by an outside occupying force (at a cost to that occupying force of trillions of dollars).

Does that prove anything in the long term? Does that create a fundamental change in the thinking of iraqis? Probably not. It takes generations of consistency to erase thousands of years of cultural evolution.

The better solution is to find out how to work with people, who are adults and have an obligation to take care of themselves. Spare me the savior routine until someone actually proves this anything is worth the cost, and unless the locals are behind the cause.

Sh it, if you hand thqt money to your own people, its more likely to cause a differnce in your citizens lives.

[Walt Liquor]

My grammar and spelling sux on this phone.

[Grand Champ]

My grammar and spelling sux on this phone.

Jajaja, blame the phone

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My grammar and spelling sux on this phone.

quite a reply for a phone!!

[Walt Liquor]

quite a reply for a phone!!

Not to mention, driving around the park trying to put my kid to sleep while yelling at the wife via text for being a ****.

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Not to mention, driving around the park trying to put my kid to sleep while yelling at the wife via text for being a ****.

youre calling the mother of your child(ren) a ****?!?!?

[squealpiggy]

Only responding to your response to me.

1) i do not believe those figures

Why? Do you think those figures are propaganda? Why would you seek to diminish the courage of those Iraqis who decided to exercise their democratic rights for, in some cases the first time in their lives, in the face of violent thuggery at the hands of sectarian fascists?

The Iraq was characterized by unforgivable bungles designed not to assist the war effort but to try to justify the actions of politicians back home. That's not an excuse to attempt to minimize the good things that have happened in Iraq as a result of the war. To attempt to vilify every aspect of the invasion is partisan and unreflective of reality.

2) the united states of america and great britian are not the world's problem solvers. The focus is misguided without a doubt. There is a cost/reward for every action, from raising children to international politics.

There is a long term strategic reason for the war and only a simpleton would conclude that it's anything so single minded and petty as to steal oil. The long term plan was to fight against terror by having a majority Muslim democratic ally in the Middle East who can stand as a beacon to people under the heel of theocratic fascists like Syria or Iran. In short an example that democracy can work in a Muslim nation and is not just a Western and Jewish invention. The fallout from this has been a weakening of the power of the despots and this has resulted in revolutions in Egypt, Libya and soon Syria.

The Arab spring owes much to the Iraq war. Iraq and Afghanistan were an unmistakable signal to the rest of the region that tyranny will not be tolerated. It would be naive to believe the Western war on terror and the current Middle East uprisings are unrelated.

So fukin what if iraq has a good voter turnout for elections overseen by an outside occupying force (at a cost to that occupying force of trillions of dollars).

You'd prefer "so fukin what if Iraqis are under the heal of a murderous torturer"? Or "so what if I enjoy a level of free speech and democracy that Iraqis have hitherto not even dared to dream of lest they by roused from their beds and spirited away into a Ba'athist torture cell"? It's a big deal to these people who get to choose their own government.

Does that prove anything in the long term? Does that create a fundamental change in the thinking of iraqis? Probably not. It takes generations of consistency to erase thousands of years of cultural evolution.

This is just patronising. "Iraqis don't get democracy, they need a strongman like Saddam to keep them in line".

The better solution is to find out how to work with people, who are adults and have an obligation to take care of themselves. Spare me the savior routine until someone actually proves this anything is worth the cost, and unless the locals are behind the cause.

Frankly the locals were and are behind the cause of their own self determination, especially the Shia majority who were second class citizens under Saddam's Sunni Ba'ath leadership. There has been sectarian violence between extremists of both Shia and Sunni Iraqi background, but there has also been a massive influx of foreign Jihadi mercenaries who flooded Iraq to "fight against the occupation" by murdering the Iraqis who live there.

At the end of the day the occupation should be judged on its merits, good and bad, not whether you personally agreed with the invasion.

[Walt Liquor]

youre calling the mother of your child(ren) a ****?!?!?

I didnt call her a ****, i said she was being a ****. Theres a big difference.

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I didnt call her a ****, i said she was being a ****. Theres a big difference.

oh i know there is, i just wanted to make sure

[Walt Liquor]

Squeal, i have plenty of responses but walking around the grocery store isnt the place for me to properly reply.