Extension(s) of the Mind, and Hello

[Mescaline]

OK, I know I'm new here, never posted anything, but bear with me. It's a long post, but it has some very controvesial ideas in it. If you think you can handle it, read it.

A kind of summary has been posted on the second page of this thread. Read that instead if this is too much too handle

What are your thoughts on things like a GPS system, the whole iPhone generation of mobile phones, a calculator, maybe even a clock, and of course computers being or becoming part of the Mind, being extensions of the Mind, enhancing the Mind?
This might sound pretty counter-intuitive. It sure did to me when I first heard it. But why, really, would this not be the case?

Aren't we becoming more and more like the characters depicted in the movie(s) "Ghost in a Shell". Would you consider all their fancy technologies implanted in their brains and such as part of their Mind? Or is it the Mind 'governing' all those mechanical parts, like operating a machine, thus not being the Mind itself? But then again, if the Mind is a product of the brain (although this could be disputed), and you implant or enhance that brain by means of some machinery, whether it be physically connected to it or not, being outside or inside the skull, how then can it be the governing component? How can the product of something be the thing holding all the strings of its "creator"?

And, connected to this, what do you think about things like Deep-Brain stimulation (DBS). Implanting some kind of nanotechnology in the brain of a depressed person, and voilą, within a few minutes the person is feelig great. He just jumps up and exclaims "I finally feel like myself!". For years the person was stuck in his own mental world, not able to 'escape' the 'tortures' of his own mind. Then someone implants something completely non-human, absolutely 100% mechanical, in his brain, and he finally feels like himself. He starts doing stuff he has always wanted to do but failed to bring up the effort to do so. Stuff he says really are what 'define' his being, his personality, which always seemed to be out of reach. He starts doing all kinds of crazy stuff, not per se healthy, but still, they are what he claims to be aspects of his personality.
On the other hand, a person, hardly capable of moving at all for most of his life, one day, after a similar technological "adjustment" of his brain suddenly regains the ability to move around, and do stuff. What is the first thing he does after being able to move again? He moves over to the balcony and jumps down - Dead.
So, both stories of these two people are actually true, I didn't just make them up (the details of the second one being a bit more hazy, but the general idea being the same). In the first story it seems quite straightforward to think the DBS helped to 'complete' the man's personality, his Mind one could say, making it an enhancement of his Mind. But in the second story, this conclusion is a bit harder to make.. Especially as we cannot ask the guy what on earth he was thinking deciding to end his life right then and there. Was it really what he wanted? Was his life-time wish to jump down a balcony, to die? Was it an extension of his mind, his personality, of who he was? Was he "supposed to be" suicidal? Or did he become mentally disordered due to some kind of malfunctioning or side-effect of the implant? Also, the second story involves some ethical issues: Is it ethical to "help" someone, who in turn ends his or her life?

Another thought that is connected to this is the current development in Artificial Intelligence. The functioning of the human brain is being mapped more and more effectively, more accurate, at an alarming pace mind you. So in a sense a human brain is starting to look like a computer more and more, as we gain more understanding of its functioning. On the other hand, advancements in AI are giving computers and robots an ever more increasing amount of human "properties". For example, it seems there is an AI that can evaluate and grade papers just as well, if not better, in comaprison to a human professor or teacher, even providing full feedback, all of which within a few minutes, if not seconds. Of course this AI still lacks a lot of human properties, like emotions or genuine creativity. Regardless, the two, humans and AI, are starting to look more alike at a very fast pace. It is not that crazy to think, I believe, that they will become one and the same at some distant (or maybe not even that distant) time in the future.
Yet antoher thing worth mentioning in this context is the line of thought that maybe, just maybe, the first Man, or maybe even the ancient Greeks, to make it more controvesial, did not possess a Mind, that he/they was/were not conscious. That they just "did" and "lived", but never really knew, never really were aware, never were conscious of what they were actually doing. Something called a "Zombie" in psychology. Some people even go as far to claim that the modern day human is nothing more than a Zombie. I find this hard to believe, but just to illustrate how crazy things can get. Anyway, the point of this short endeavour into humanity's mental history being that if those ancient Greeks or cavemen didn't have a Mind or consciousness, what makes them so different from some kind of extremely advanced AI?
So, will these super-AIs in the future be able to think? Will they develop something similar to a Mind? Or can computers already think? Do they already have something like a "Mind at infancy"? Or is it absolutely beyond all reasonable thought to even go there, thinking computers could have a Mind - "Ludicrous! You must be going insane!".

So.. Is some of our technology an extension of our Mind? Are we turning into robots, or are computers turning into human-like beings? Or are humans and robots actually the same in some sense? Robots just being a "species" in its very early stages of some kind of human engineered evolution (Oh! I just got a crazy thought.. Those en****** that some people report seeing and communicating with during psychedelic experiences, such as smoking DMT (you all know DMT?), or taking massive amounts of LSD, magic mushrooms, or similar.. Maybe they are to us what we humans are to robots?? That would actually, somehow, intuitively, make a lot of sense to me, although I'd have to think about this a lot more..).

Everything (ok, almost everything) boiled down to one question: Are we (becoming) Cyborgs?

[Uncle Howie]

Didn't read your post, just wondering whos ALT you are?

[Mescaline]

Well read it, you might be surprised.

[spyvsspy]

Cool story, bro.

[Mescaline]

That's all you can say?

[Spartacus Sully]

tl didnt read

though i understand the premise, things like smart phones make us dumber, we feel complacent not remembering things because we can just google it or use a calculator.

i had a conversation about this with my friends a bit ago and they disagree they feel that the wealth of knowledge at our fingertips allows us to look stuff up and ensure what we are saying is correct, enhancing our intelligence.

i disagree, i defiantly feel these things in our every day life drastically impairs our memory.

and since i didnt read, this maybe completely off topic.

[Mescaline]

No not totally off-topic, but I'm not saying it's making us dumber. I'm saying it is becoming part of us, part of who we are, our Mind, or brain if you are a strict materialist. Becoming cyborgs, or being cyborgs already.

Also there is some other stuff concerning similar topics in it as well, that go beyond this. Read it if you are really interested.

[Spartacus Sully]

No not totally off-topic, but I'm not saying it's making us dumber. I'm saying it is becoming part of us, part of who we are, our Mind, or brain if you are a strict materialist. Becoming cyborgs, or being cyborgs already.

Also there is some other stuff concerning similar topics in it as well, that go beyond this. Read it if you are really interested.

well im saying it is making us dumber.

as the machine becomes a part of us, our lives, the living part of us is being neglected and becoming dumber because we are complacent and can rely on the machines.

[Mescaline]

Yes, I understand, and I agree with that to some degree. But you do have to read all of it, or else I'm just going to repeat parts of my initial post, in response to yours.

So, what about technology that is not outside the brain? What about implants, like DBS (read the paragraph that mentions Deep-Brain stimulation (DBS))? You would have access to them all the time. Actually you would not be able to ignore them, even if you would like to. They can (will) change your personality, how you feel, how you act. What do you think about that? This has nothing to do with becoming more or less intelligent. It is about what defines "you"; who you are. Are you still the same person that you were before the device was implanted, except for that "former" you now being "hidden", as it has been changed or adjusted, or are you a completely new person, i.e. you have a new Mind, of which the implant has become a part of?
A similar question would actually be if you are the same person that you were when you were a baby? I know this is a very strange question, but really think about it for a minute. Do you possess the same Mind as you did when you were a baby? All kinds of neuronal connections have been created, new pathways have been created, actual physical additions, and in the same way other neuronal pathways have been destroyed. Parts of your brain have grown, changed, and reduced in size. So, are you the same person? Now, this same question can be asked about the "you" from a year ago, a month ago, a week ago, hell, a second ago, as your brains have already changed, new connections have been made by merely reading this post, even this sentence.

And, in addition to the above, what makes a computer so different from an implant. I know that you can't carry around a computer or rather the internet with you all the time, having access to everything you would want to know within a split second (although I believe iPhones or iPads are getting pretty damn close to this). Yet, if you say we are becoming dumber because we rely too much on these devices for our knowledge, isn't that exactly same as saying that they already are part of our Mind, of who we are. If you remove part of your brain you would most likely also become pretty stupid, am I right? Just in the same way as that someone who completely relies on computer-like devices comes across as pretty stupid when he does not have access to those devices. If he would, on the other hand, be allowed to use those devices at all times, and would be granted enough time to look up everything he would require, wouldn't he do just fine?

[MacDaRippa]

tl didnt read

though i understand the premise, things like smart phones make us dumber, we feel complacent not remembering things because we can just google it or use a calculator.

i had a conversation about this with my friends a bit ago and they disagree they feel that the wealth of knowledge at our fingertips allows us to look stuff up and ensure what we are saying is correct, enhancing our intelligence.

i disagree, i defiantly feel these things in our every day life drastically impairs our memory.

and since i didnt read, this maybe completely off topic.

I thought I was the only one. I agree 100%. Green K