Creation Question?

[Spartacus Sully]

the entropy of the sun does not increases, because it is undergoing nuclear thermosynthesis, by smashing He atoms into C atoms, the system of the sun has decreased entropy, in consequence heat is released which contributes to the increase of entropy of the separate system(universe, earth). Now that heat is absorbed by earth. heat moving from hot to cold, this in theory would increase the entropy of earth.

nuclear thermosynthesis? perhaps you can explain that a little bit better for me because all i see is a theoretical idea that something can convert heat into fuel.

he to c? i allways thought it was H atoms into He at the point where it starts to convert to he atoms to c atoms the sun must compress first and become super heated.

heat moving from hot to cold perhaps if the only attribute the sun gave the earth was infrared rays.

[squealpiggy]

"behemoths"

Probably oxen.

17 His tail hardens like a cedar; the sinews of his tendons are knit together.

A mistranslation, probably deliberate. The translation from the original is "His penis hardens like a cedar". I'm guessing the celibate monks making the translation found this to be too anatomical.

please elaborate on this, to my knowledge, heat is the ultimate form of entropy.

Heat is just a form of energy. Entropy is the tendency for energy in a closed system to tend towards ****geny.

When the sun converts He into C, The resulting carbon atoms are in a lower state of energy, more stable, more structural element with less entropy locally

The sun converts hydrogen to helium via nuclear fusion. It's true that helium is a more stable element than hydrogen, and that as the hydrogen fuel turns to helium it is being used up.

as a result, heat released into the universe, it is this heat that contributes to the increase of disorder in the universe as a closed system.

with that said how can the earth use the ultimate form of disorder expelled form the sun to create more order? thanks.

What you've now done is deliberately conflated information theory with entropy to try and shore up an untenable logical position. The trouble with doing this is that according to information theory disorder is actually more complex than order. Of course you're using standard and oft-refuted creationist arguments wo you'll simply ignore the parts of the science you're abusing that don't fit and run with the ones that do, so I'm resigned to another inane question once you read this reply.

I don't understand this mechanism
"For example planet earth recieves tremendous energy from the sun, more than enough to offset the effect of entropy on the planet"

No. You don't understand entropy, information theory or any other misuse of quote-mined science. That's the issue.

From what I gather, he is say that earth receives energy from the sun, this energy is heat, it is waste energy, which causes any system to increase in entropy. how does it ultimate form of entropy off set entropy?

The sun expends energy. Part of that energy reaches the earth. Ingenious organisms convert this energy (light and heat) into other forms of energy (chemical) and use it for respiratory metabolism, then other organisms feed on those organisms etc. Entropy is NOT "wasted heat".

The big problem with this sort of creationist garbage is that it attempts to use science to refute science. It is wholly dishonest and a curious example of how creationists are quite willing to breach one of their god's explicit prohibitions (ninth commandment) because they think it will please him.

[bbos]

nuclear thermosynthesis? perhaps you can explain that a little bit better for me because all i see is a theoretical idea that something can convert heat into fuel.

he to c? i allways thought it was H atoms into He at the point where it starts to convert to he atoms to c atoms the sun must compress first and become super heated.

heat moving from hot to cold perhaps if the only attribute the sun gave the earth was infrared rays.

oops my mistake, the sun isn't old enough to synthesis helium into carbon yet, but eventually it will, once all the hydrogen has been converted into helium, it will start "burning" helium into carbon.

nuclear synthesis is when the sun smashes 2 hydrogen atoms into into a helium atom. the resulting helium atom is more structural complex and has less energy, more stable then the original 2 hydrogen atoms. in concept, the sun is attaining less entropy, because it is becoming more structurally complex. it started out as a clump of hydrogen---->helium---->carbon. in terms of molecular complexity and orgainization, carbon > Helium>Hydrogen.

So the sun is becoming more complex with less entropy during this process

in a closed system such as the universe. As you said Entropy(disorder) always increases, but locally in the universe, entropy can decrease, then how does the universe gains entropy through local order? that is when stars such as the sun perform work to become organized(less entropy) it also releases heat. (heat is the most disorganized form of energy) and it is by this process in which parts of the universe can attain less entropy while the entire universe will always increase in entropy.

Heat is just a form of energy. Entropy is the tendency for energy in a closed system to tend towards ****geny.

Heat has the greatest value in terms of entropy in relation to all other forms of energy. Entropy is the the progression (or rather regression in terms of structural complexity and order) into disorder.

****geny...? what your saying is that in a closed system of particle A and B, a separation of particle A and B is more likely to occur rather the mixture of particle A and B. Since ****geneous state corresponds to a separation of particles into its own group.

according to information theory disorder is actually more complex than order.

according to this quote, a human that is crushed up and boiled for soup is more complex and has more order then a living human.

What you've now done is deliberately conflated information theory with entropy to try and shore up an untenable logical position.

so your saying that heat, which is the most disordered form of energy, in the observable universe, has no relation to the entropy theory and that disorder and order has no relation to entropy.

The sun expends energy. Part of that energy reaches the earth. Ingenious organisms convert this energy (light and heat) into other forms of energy (chemical) and use it for respiratory metabolism, then other organisms feed on those organisms etc. Entropy is NOT "wasted heat".

so what your saying is that when the sun releases the most disordered form of energy onto earth, life on earth converts that disorderly form of energy into an ordered more structured form of energy.
and this is your explanation for your own statement "For example planet earth receives tremendous energy from the sun, more than enough to offset the effect of entropy on the planet."
In turn what you mean by "more than enough" equates to life forms on earth offset the effect of entropy on earth?

The big problem with this sort of creationist garbage is that it attempts to use science to refute science. It is wholly dishonest and a curious example of how creationists are quite willing to breach one of their god's explicit prohibitions (ninth commandment) because they think it will please him.

calm down buddy, your taking this too personally, but not personally enough to give proper desertion. I'm asking questions in hopes that you have insights to your articulation, I'm not arguing for or against creation. I simply want to know the truth. but not only did you refuse to give a proper explanation to a pseudo mechanism, even worse, you can't even explain it. you resorted to name calling and personal attacks of which must originates from illogical and personal inconsistencies. May I suggest instead of giving one word brash answers, you concede to the scientific method and properly explain step by step your conclusions.

[Spartacus Sully]

oops my mistake, the sun isn't old enough to synthesis helium into carbon yet, but eventually it will, once all the hydrogen has been converted into helium, it will start "burning" helium into carbon.

nuclear synthesis is when the sun smashes 2 hydrogen atoms into into a helium atom. the resulting helium atom is more structural complex and has less energy, more stable then the original 2 hydrogen atoms. in concept, the sun is attaining less entropy, because it is becoming more structurally complex. it started out as a clump of hydrogen---->helium---->carbon. in terms of molecular complexity and orgainization, carbon > Helium>Hydrogen.

I had asked about nuclear thermosynthesis the conversion of heat into fuel.

as well im not to sure what makes one element less organized then another. id have to say thats just and assumption your making and im pretty sure iots wrong.

en⋅tro⋅py:
a function of thermodynamic variables, as temperature, pressure, or composition, that is a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process. A closed system evolves toward a state of maximum entropy.

in other words the sun's entropy would be the energy that is lost during nuclear fusion. as the h atoms fuse into he atoms mass is lost that would other wise exist allowing for the sun to do more fuseing.

hot to cold actually would be increasing entropy on a universe where maximum entropy in the universe would be the point where nothing else is creating heat and every thing has frozen. nothing left for any more work.

[bbos]

I had asked about nuclear thermosynthesis the conversion of heat into fuel.

as well im not to sure what makes one element less organized then another. id have to say thats just and assumption your making and im pretty sure iots wrong.

en⋅tro⋅py:
a function of thermodynamic variables, as temperature, pressure, or composition, that is a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process. A closed system evolves toward a state of maximum entropy.

in other words the sun's entropy would be the energy that is lost during nuclear fusion. as the h atoms fuse into he atoms mass is lost that would other wise exist allowing for the sun to do more fuseing.

hot to cold actually would be increasing entropy on a universe where maximum entropy in the universe would be the point where nothing else is creating heat and every thing has frozen. nothing left for any more work.

one can say that carbon is more structurally complex and ordered form of energy/matter compared to hydrogen because

1. it is a heavier element, to synthesis carbon, one has to smash helium atoms together, and to make helium atoms, one has to smash hydrogen atoms together.
2. carbon can form 4 bonds where as hydrogen can only form one.
3. carbon has more complex electron configuration. 1s22s22p2 where as hydrogen is 1s.
4. Carbon can make sigma and pi bonds vs hydrogen can only make 1 sigma bond.
5. carbon has a nuclear core of 6 protons, 6 nuetrons and 6 electons vs hydrogen only has 1 proton and 1 electron and no nutron.

basically, carbon atoms are built up from hydrogen atoms. in analogy,now I say a brick hose is more complex and more structurally ordered then the individual bricks. wouldn't you agree?

so when the sun was at its conception, it was a clump of hydrogen, this clump will eventually turn into carbon. thus the sun's entropy decreases, just as a messy room has more entropy(disorder) then a clean room with less entropy (more order).

"in other words the sun's entropy would be the energy that is lost during nuclear fusion."

this is exactly what I mean by heat as most disordered form of energy, as yourself said, sun's entropy is the energy released, which is light and heat.

"as the h atoms fuse into he atoms mass is lost "
exactly my friend, that entropy emitted by the sun, or heat was once part of a more structured form of matter (mass) now it is released as a disordered form of matter that is (heat).

"hot to cold actually would be increasing entropy on a universe where maximum entropy in the universe would be the point where nothing else is creating heat and every thing has frozen. nothing left for any more work."

this is true but you have to remember in a CLOSED universe, heat doesn't dissipate, nothing is froze. Image in a closed box that is this universe, hence closed system and heat doesn't escape. which would have more entropy, a box full of heat or a box full of stars? obviously the box filled with a uniform distribution of energy in form of heat is more disorderly, less complex then the unvierse filled with stars and galaxies.

[squealpiggy]

bbos you have wilfully and deliberately misunderstood every single part of my post, ignoring the actual words I have posted and putting in your own explanation in an utterly transparent effort to pass yourself off as knowledgable.

Reread my last post and at least attempt to understand it or don't bother trying to debate this subject, you are wrong on just about every single point you make.

[Spartacus Sully]

one can say that carbon is more structurally complex and ordered form of energy/matter compared to hydrogen because

1. it is a heavier element, to synthesis carbon, one has to smash helium atoms together, and to make helium atoms, one has to smash hydrogen atoms together.
2. carbon can form 4 bonds where as hydrogen can only form one.
3. carbon has more complex electron configuration. 1s22s22p2 where as hydrogen is 1s.
4. Carbon can make sigma and pi bonds vs hydrogen can only make 1 sigma bond.
5. carbon has a nuclear core of 6 protons, 6 nuetrons and 6 electons vs hydrogen only has 1 proton and 1 electron and no nutron.

basically, carbon atoms are built up from hydrogen atoms. in analogy,now I say a brick hose is more complex and more structurally ordered then the individual bricks. wouldn't you agree?

no if hydrogen is a brick carbon might be a concrete bock or a 2*4 its just another item used for building in no way would it ever be a house(molecule).

more so really id just say your taking 2 bricks and making 1 thats slightly bigger.

as well those are just differences in what the atom contains and not in the order of the atom for both still have a nucleious that is made to contain the same things as both have the same particles rotating on the out side as well as many other things they have in common

so when the sun was at its conception, it was a clump of hydrogen, this clump will eventually turn into carbon. thus the sun's entropy decreases, just as a messy room has more entropy(disorder) then a clean room with less entropy (more order).

the sun at one point was a cloud of hydrogen then became a lump due to gravity eventually it will start to fuse he to c and it will expand greatly but its density will drop expanding as just a cloud past mars and a very solid core will remain in the center at this point the force of the electrons wanting to be away from other electrons will keep the sun in a state where it dosnt need to continue with the nuclear reactions to keep from colapsing in on itself. esentially what you would have in your room comparison is if you take 1/4 of whats in the room and ball it up in a tight chunk in the middle and take the rest grind it up into dust and sprinkle it over a square mile.

regardless of all that a lump of hydrogen would be more tightly packed then lump of carbon as it would repel from other h atoms much less then crepels from c atoms. maintaining that there would be more disgregation (space between the atoms) in the lump of carbon therefore the process of going from a lump of hydrogen to a lump of carbon would be along a path of increasing entrophy.

as well with much less mass to create gravity the carbon atoms will be much much fruther apart.

this is true but you have to remember in a CLOSED universe, heat doesn't dissipate, nothing is froze. Image in a closed box that is this universe, hence closed system and heat doesn't escape. which would have more entropy, a box full of heat or a box full of stars? obviously the box filled with a uniform distribution of energy in form of heat is more disorderly, less complex then the unvierse filled with stars and galaxies.

the universe is expanding at an increasing rate its not closed. a closed universe would collapse in on its self eventually and the expansion would start to slow down instead of speeding up.

[bbos]

no if hydrogen is a brick carbon might be a concrete bock or a 2*4 its just another item used for building in no way would it ever be a house(molecule).

more so really id just say your taking 2 bricks and making 1 thats slightly bigger.

as well those are just differences in what the atom contains and not in the order of the atom for both still have a nucleious that is made to contain the same things as both have the same particles rotating on the out side as well as many other things they have in common

hydrogen's nucleus has 1 proton and 1 valence electron, 0 neutrons
carbon has 6 protons, 6 electrons, 6 electrons with 2 core electrons and 4 valence electrons
which is more complex?

think about it in terms of lego blocks, which is more complex in structure. a single piece of lego block with only one hole for attachment point or a square shaped lego block that has four different attachment points. again which is more complex?

hydrogen is the simplest form of elements and is also the most pervasive in the universe.
why do you think gold is so rare? because its abundance in the universe is not so great compared to hydrogen. why? because just as carbon is more complex and heavier and harder to make, gold is surpasses the complexity of carbon by ten folds. Stars can synthesis elements up to Fe, (thats iron) and any element heavier will require neutron capture, compare this to the simple structure hydrogen, do you get the picture?

lets rate the complexity of atoms
Au(Gold) 1s2 2s2p6 3s2p6d10 4s2p6d10f14 5s2p6d10 6s1
C (carbon)1s22s2sp2
He (Helium) 1s22s1
H (hydrgen) 1s.

So, when the sun converts a less structurally complex form of matter into a more complex form of matter, does this quate to a gain or a loss in entropy in terms of the composition of the sun that was once 100% hydrogen now is 100% helium?

esentially what you would have in your room comparison is if you take 1/4 of whats in the room and ball it up in a tight chunk in the middle and take the rest grind it up into dust and sprinkle it over a square mile.

what has more order and is less random? that chunk of solid wood furniture in the center of the room or finely crushed and grinned microscopic matter that is dust sprinkled over a half mile radius?

a lump of hydrogen would be more tightly packed then lump of carbon.

a lump of hydrogen under pressure will become liquid hydrogen, a lump of carbon results in diamonds. which one is more orderly and less random? diamonds or liquid hydrogen?

the universe is expanding at an increasing rate its not closed. a closed universe would collapse in on its self eventually and the expansion would start to slow down instead of speeding up.

so your telling me the universe is not a closed system?. lol just kidding, this is a problem im trying to solve, because instance, when you freeze water the molecules of H2O line up in
beautifully organised crystals. compared to liquid water where the molecules are moving about eachother in all random directions. So does this mean when the universe freezes it will also gain more order compared to when it was a hot bubbling bowl of soup?

bbos you have wilfully and deliberately misunderstood every single part of my post, ignoring the actual words I have posted and putting in your own explanation in an utterly transparent effort to pass yourself off as knowledgable.

Reread my last post and at least attempt to understand it or don't bother trying to debate this subject, you are wrong on just about every single point you make.

again with the esoteric replys, might I beseech the to shed
light upon thy errors

[Charlie Kelly]

It's all a gimic and a child's bedtime story turned into one huge BS ploy to scam people out of money and to make them believe if they give up cash and pray to some imaginary child story character that when they die they will be taken somewhere special for eternity...

[Spartacus Sully]

hydrogen's nucleus has 1 proton and 1 valence electron, 0 neutrons
carbon has 6 protons, 6 electrons, 6 electrons with 2 core electrons and 4 valence electrons
which is more complex?

think about it in terms of lego blocks, which is more complex in structure. a single piece of lego block with only one hole for attachment point or a square shaped lego block that has four different attachment points. again which is more complex?

hydrogen is the simplest form of elements and is also the most pervasive in the universe.
why do you think gold is so rare? because its abundance in the universe is not so great compared to hydrogen. why? because just as carbon is more complex and heavier and harder to make, gold is surpasses the complexity of carbon by ten folds. Stars can synthesis elements up to Fe, (thats iron) and any element heavier will require neutron capture, compare this to the simple structure hydrogen, do you get the picture?

lets rate the complexity of atoms
Au(Gold) 1s2 2s2p6 3s2p6d10 4s2p6d10f14 5s2p6d10 6s1
C (carbon)1s22s2sp2
He (Helium) 1s22s1
H (hydrgen) 1s.

So, when the sun converts a less structurally complex form of matter into a more complex form of matter, does this quate to a gain or a loss in entropy in terms of the composition of the sun that was once 100% hydrogen now is 100% helium?

you lost me when you stated that an increase in complexity is an increase in order. you see an increase of complexity can be seen as a loss of order or an increase in order and dose little to effect or define weather or not an items entropy is increasing or decreasing.

what has more order and is less random? that chunk of solid wood furniture in the center of the room or finely crushed and grinned microscopic matter that is dust sprinkled over a half mile radius?

well i can say that the process of taking the wood furniture, grinding it up and spreading it over a square mile would be a process of increasing entropy. comparing this to the sun would be the same process except you kept a peice of wood from the fruniture burned it in a low oxygen enviroment so it turns to charcole and then placed it in the middle of the room while spreading the rest over the square mile.

a lump of hydrogen under pressure will become liquid hydrogen, a lump of carbon results in diamonds. which one is more orderly and less random? diamonds or liquid hydrogen?

neither is more orderly, did one suddenly become something other then an atom?