Do you believe any of the 9/11 conspiracy theories?

[squealpiggy]

Ok. Lets go with the possibility that this 757 was flown into the Pentagon by someone else besides Hani Hanjour. He sure as hell couldnt have done it.

And why is this? Why could he not do it? Is it because he was repeatedly reported to the FAA by his flight school instructors? Because I sense a bit of dishonesty on your part here.

The reason he was reported was because he was an unsafe pilot. The reason he was an unsafe pilot is because his English skills were not up to scratch! He was unable to communicate in the international air trafic control language and therefore unsuitable to be a pilot!

All this "He couldn't fly a cessna" is sheer bull****.

Also dubious how none of the hijackers were phisically big or strong, yet they managed to take control of the cockpit with little documented struggle from pilots with military backgrounds. No mayday call. No sign of trouble. NOTHING.

Nawaf Al-Hazmi, Kalid al-Mihdhar fought together in Bosnia and Afghanistan. Salem al-Hazmi fought in Chechnya. The Fifth hijacker, Majed Moqed, was trained in Afghanistan. So along with the pilot with the poor english there were four "muscle" hijackers with military training, three of which were veterans of recent wars. Again your implication is dishonest. You clearly imply that there were five unimposing guys who couldn't hurt a fly without crashing a plane into it, when most of the men on the flight were military veterans.

2 charred "black" blackboxes were recovered. Standard black boxes should be orange. This makes no sense!

No absolutely this doesn't make any sense. Why on earth would you expect something that had been covered in burning jet fuel to get charred? The GOVERNMENT COVERED IT UP!

Tool.

The whole thing. I already explained this to you in my previous post.

What specifically? Your post is littered with irrelevance, you put in a huge amount of crap in there like most "truth"ers with the express purpose of leaving some things unanswered (largely because they don't merit a response) then you can say to your friends (which is actually just you and your alleged brother) "Ahaaaa! There's no answer as to why the FBI put gravel on the lawn!".

The FBI assumed responsibility for investigating. And to this day it gave us nothing for an investigation.

Its findings were submited to the 9/11 commission and made public via that medium.

Feel free to tackle the claims I made about the ISI, the CFR, and Bush's warplans against Afghanistan days before 9/11. I'm waiting.......

All of those things are completely irrelevant.

You ignored the FBI's reluctance to make a real investigation on this.

Hundreds of witnesses see a plane flying low near the pentagon, dozens see a plane crash into the pentagon, in the pentagon there are found bits of the plane, the flight recorders, and the bodies and some personal effects of the passengers and crew, and some of the passengers made phone calls to people close to them as the plane hit.

Open. Shut.

I have answered you enough on the Pentagon. Now lets talk 9/11.

You haven't answered ****. For a start you haven't actually had the balls to say what you think happened. You seem to be leaning away from it being a missile, didn't really answer whether it was a military jet. You're now suggesting that it was a boeing 757 which makes most of your comments completely void (as mostly they were devoted to saying it wasn't a 757) so I can only conclude from your persistence that you think that it was a 757 but it was a different 757 than Flight 77.

Which begs a lot of questions: Where did this other 757 come from? What happened to Flight 77? What evidence do you have that this was a different 757 than the one reported missing that appeared to everyone apart from you to have crashed into the Pentagon?

I'm noticing that when you are forced to actually put forward a hypothesis most of your argument falls away.

In all seriousness, this is what I ask these people. Did the plane just disappear?

No, large amounts of debris were found inside the crash site, other parts were found strewn over the lawn. This notion that there was no plane found is a complete lie.

[Panopticon]

And why is this? Why could he not do it? Is it because he was repeatedly reported to the FAA by his flight school instructors? Because I sense a bit of dishonesty on your part here.

The reason he was reported was because he was an unsafe pilot. The reason he was an unsafe pilot is because his English skills were not up to scratch! He was unable to communicate in the international air trafic control language and therefore unsuitable to be a pilot!

All this "He couldn't fly a cessna" is sheer bull****.

You actually think he stepped into a cockpit of a plane he's never flown before and executed a near impossible 330 degree maneuver decending 7000 feet at speeds that fooled those tracking it by radar into thinking it was a military jet? You are so gullible.

It is a fact that he could not fly solo in cessna planes. He tried for serveral years to get a piloting licence and to this day the FAA refuses to discuss how he actually got one in 1999.

He was also not a religious suicidal fundamentalist like we have been told. The hijackers were known to eat pork, **** women, watch ****, and HANI HANJOUR HIMSELF was seen paying a speeding ticket 3 weeks before 9/11.

That is not the behavoiur of religious fundamentals preparing to sacrifice themselves in the war against the infedels. They were behaving just like the "infedels".

Also. Hanjours name does not appear on the Flight 77 manifest.

Nawaf Al-Hazmi, Kalid al-Mihdhar fought together in Bosnia and Afghanistan. Salem al-Hazmi fought in Chechnya. The Fifth hijacker, Majed Moqed, was trained in Afghanistan. So along with the pilot with the poor english there were four "muscle" hijackers with military training, three of which were veterans of recent wars. Again your implication is dishonest. You clearly imply that there were five unimposing guys who couldn't hurt a fly without crashing a plane into it, when most of the men on the flight were military veterans.

I am implying that they couldnt have imposed their will against military veteran pilots trained to give distress calls to the FAA at any sign of trouble. None of those men stood over 5 foot 7.

People who knew Charles Burlingame argue that he wouldnt have given up that cockpit without a hell of a fight. However, Flight 77 was hijacked at 8:51 with no may day call. Nothing.

No absolutely this doesn't make any sense. Why on earth would you expect something that had been covered in burning jet fuel to get charred? The GOVERNMENT COVERED IT UP!

Tool.

Your heroes at Popular Mechanics lied when they said that Allyn Kilsheimer "found the black box" when in fact the black boxes were found by Firefighters 3 days later. You accept shoddy journalism and shoddy investigation work as satisfactory. Yes, THE GOVERNMENT COVERED IT UP. You are getting it.

You still refuse to acknowledge the FBI's non investigation on this.

What specifically? Your post is littered with irrelevance, you put in a huge amount of crap in there like most "truth"ers with the express purpose of leaving some things unanswered (largely because they don't merit a response) then you can say to your friends (which is actually just you and your alleged brother) "Ahaaaa! There's no answer as to why the FBI put gravel on the lawn!".

Right. The FBI covered the lawn in gravel to cover up any forensic evidence that remained. They also confiscated all the cameras, and they did not even bother to release a report. This is relevent. Stop pretending its not.

Its findings were submited to the 9/11 commission and made public via that medium.

We deserve a report on the Pentagon crash that doesnt require us to flip through hundreds of pages of crap.

That Commission doesnt even dare to mention WTC 7. Now I'm supposed to trust their half wit explanation of the Pentagon if they are simultanously sweeping WTC 7 and the ISI right under the carpet.

Next.

All of those things are completely irrelevant.

.

Hundreds of witnesses see a plane flying low near the pentagon, dozens see a plane crash into the pentagon, in the pentagon there are found bits of the plane, the flight recorders, and the bodies and some personal effects of the passengers and crew, and some of the passengers made phone calls to people close to them as the plane hit.

Open. Shut.

Id rather just read this. http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...y_of_9/11=aa77

Says everything you mention, but much more.

*same tired crap*

You've been stuck on this whole pentagon speculation for over 40 pages. Yes I admit, I AM ON THE FENCE about this. Always have been. I know fully know that this issue is nothing more than convinient bait for you. I'm gonna have to steer this back to 9/11.

[Panopticon]

piglet, it seems that after I have posted more than enough anecdotal evidence from family members, victims, government officials, witnesses, that suggests that the official government explanation of 9/11 is a half baked farce.

You have never even attempted to declare whether you believe this to be true or not. It is clear that your form of scepticism overlooks the most important issues, like direct scepticism of the official story.

You have done NO OBJECTIVE reflections and observations as to what makes the official accounts wrong, and yet you seem to focus on forcing hypothesis out of people about things still open for discussion.

The only thing OPEN AND SHUT is that the US government is covering up the days events and that a NEW INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION inclusive to interests from within the government needs to be done.

The families want it. The survivors want it. The first responders defenantly want it. The only people blocking their quest for truth and justice are people like you.


You have continually neglected to provide your own opinion about their plights. So what do you think about their claims?

[TheJoker]

Id rather just read this. http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...y_of_9/11=aa77

Says everything you mention, but much more.

Just a quick question, why are you posting a source which states "9:37 a.m. September 11, 2001: Flight 77 Crashes into Reinforced Section of the Pentagon Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon. All 64 people on the plane are killed" when you are arguing that there isn't clear evidence linking it? Wouldn't your own source counter your statements? How would we know this source is credible if you yourself say the evidence doesn't show the events described in your link?

[Panopticon]

squelpiggy's 9/11 NON INVESTIGATION
Patty Cassaza, Mindy Kleinberg , Lorie Van Auken, Kristen Breitweiser, Ray Nowosielski forcing to start an obstructed Commission. IGNORED 5 times


Bush Administration's reported refusal for Commission. IGNORED

William Rodriguez, John Shroeder, and Barry Jennings testifying to explosions in both WTC 1, 2, and WT7 REFUSED TO DISCUSS


9/11 First Responder's open support of the 9/11 Truth Movement. IGNORED BECAUSE IT IRRELEVATES SO MANY CLAIMS ABOUT TRUTH MOVEMENT "EXPLOITING" THEM.


Sybel Edmonds 3 hour long interrogation at 9.11 Commission. IGNORED.


Thomas Kean, Lee Hamilton, and 4 other Commissioners saying that the investigation was set to fail, incomplete, and obstructed. SQEAL STILL DOESNT SEE WHATS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE. DIDNT EVEN SEE THE ORIGINAL QUOTES IGNORED.

Richard Falk of the UN calling for investigation into NEO CON role in 9/11.
http://www.nysun.com/news/foreign/un...ocons-role-911 IGNORED

US intelligence(CIA) and Pakistani intell(ISI) created Mujahadeen and Al Qaeda in 1979. DISMISSED

US Dep of Education and University of Nebraska provided Afghan schools with books riddled with violent propaganda. DISMISSED

Zbignew Brzisinzki(CFR) worked with AQ in 1980s, and his 1997 book The Grand Chessboard outlined a need for US military dominance in the Middle East. DISMISSED

Bush Administration was talking about war plans with Afghanistan days before 9/11. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4587368/ DISMISSED

The Attack "Mastermind" and the "Moneymaster" Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and Omar Sheikh Saeed were both members of the ISI. They shared a close personal relationship with ISI cheif Mahmood Ahmed.(Consider how ISI and CIA created Al Qaeda in 1979). DIDNT KNOW ABOUT IT. BUT DISMISSED ANYWAY

Mahmood Ahmed requested Omar Sheikh Saeed to wire 100 grand to Mohammad Atta days before 9/11. DISMISSED. I AWAIT A LINK TO THAT ATTEMPTED DEBUNKING ON 9/11MYTHS.

Mahmood Ahmed of the ISI was in Washington meeting with the CIA while the attacks happened. IGNORED AGAIN

9/11 Commission director Philip Zilekow met with the ISI in 2003 and much to the surprise of no one the ISI was COMPLETELY OMMITTED FROM THE FINAL REPORT. RELEVENCE NOT UNDERSTOOD BY HIS INFERIOR BRAIN FUNCTION


Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Brzisinski, Zilekow, and everyone important are members of the Council on Foreign Relations. The CFR has been promoting globalization since the 1920s and it had no means of stopping something like 9/11 because it is very beneficial to their mission statement. The CFR was involved with the creation of Al Qaeda(Brzisinski), the CFR was open in print about wanting US military action in the Middle East(Brzisinzki, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the PNAC) and of coarse the CFR was involved in the cover up(Philip Zilekow Executive Director of 9.11 Commission). DISMISSED

There is more than enough here to prove that the 9/11 Commission is a half baked farce. Your continued refusal to acknoledge these points makes it perfectly clear that you have agendas you are trying to protect.

Anyone in the right mind can see through the government story. You are just proving your ignorance and blind stupidity by ignoring all the true facts in favor of forcing strawman arguements and red herrings.

Debate me on those points listed above. I've been waiting 45 pages for you to finally come around to stating something relevent in this thread.

[Panopticon]

Just a quick question, why are you posting a source which states "9:37 a.m. September 11, 2001: Flight 77 Crashes into Reinforced Section of the Pentagon Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon. All 64 people on the plane are killed" when you are arguing that there isn't clear evidence linking it? Wouldn't your own source counter your statements? How would we know this source is credible if you yourself say the evidence doesn't show the events described in your link?

History Commons is by far one of the best online resources for 9/11.

It uses everything from The 9/11 Commission to independent sources.

It attempts to document the days events as we were told they were unfolded. It is however, unable to provide sufficient data to show that atleast 100 tons of plane parts were recovered from the site. To this day we have no sufficient data to support this. Can you provide it to me?

The FBI covered the investigation up since it took it over. If they really wanted to prove once and for all that flight 77 crashed there, then release the information that proves it. Unlike you, I'm not clinging to incomplete faulty data as proof just yet.


Also, since you seem to favor sqealpiggy so heavily, perhaps you can help him counter some of the points I have raised. He is having a hard time. Thanks.

[TheJoker]

History Commons is by far one of the best online resources for 9/11.

It uses everything from The 9/11 Commission to independent sources.

It attempts to document the days events as we were told they were unfolded. It is however, unable to provide sufficient data to show that atleast 100 tons of plane parts were recovered from the site. To this day we have no sufficient data to support this. Can you provide it to me?

The FBI covered the investigation up since it took it over. If they really wanted to prove once and for all that flight 77 crashed there, then release the information that proves it. Unlike you, I'm not clinging to incomplete faulty data as proof just yet.


Also, since you seem to favor sqealpiggy so heavily, perhaps you can help him counter some of the points I have raised. He is having a hard time. Thanks.

Fireman Alan Wallace is busy with a safety crew at the Pentagon’s heliport pad. As Wallace is walking in front of the Pentagon, he looks up and sees Flight 77 coming straight at him. It is about 25 feet off the ground, with no landing wheels visible, a few hundred yards away, and closing fast. He runs about 30 feet and dives under a nearby van. [Washington Post, 9/21/2001] The plane is traveling at about 460 mph, and flying so low that it clips the tops of streetlights. [CBS News, 9/21/2001] Using the radio in the van, he calls his fire chief at nearby Fort Myer and says, “We have had a commercial carrier crash into the west side of the Pentagon at the heliport, Washington Boulevard side. The crew is OK. The airplane was a 757 Boeing or a 320 Airbus.”

I go by what the evidence shows, even your link has an eye witness to a commercial airliner (with sources) crashing into the Pentagon. My question was: If you believe this link to hold accurate enough information to source it, why do you hold views in opposition from the events stated in your source?

Your source also doesn't talk about the wreckage, it goes up to the point of "(11:18 a.m.) September 11, 2001: American Airlines Publicly Announces Loss of Flights 11 and 77".

Unlike you, I read your source and read eye witness accounts and combine that with the photographic evidence displayed in multiple threads on this subject and conclude there is no fault with the story. If you would like to prove exactly how the official story doesn't fit with the physical findings then go ahead. Posting a list of events in the 80's and 90's does not effect the physical findings at the scene of the crash. Until you can prove the events are linked to your list of decades old events directly, you have no case.

All your source has managed to do is actually give me more names and times eye witnesses reported things, thanks.

[Panopticon]

Glad you found the link useful. It's much better than 9/11myths or debunking9/11 or whatever **** website sqealpiggy mimmics.

Lets try putting these pieces together using the 9/11 timeline.

Soviet Afghan War: http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...ovietAfghanWar

1976: CIA and Other Intelligence Agencies Use BCCI to Control and Manipulate Criminals and Terrorists Worldwide

May 1979: CIA Begins Working with Hekmatyar and Other Mujaheddin Leaders Chosen by ISI

1980-1989: $600 Million for Afghan War Passes through Bin Laden Charity Fronts

1980-1989: CIA and British Train Mujaheddin in Afghanistan and Help Arm Bin Laden

1981 and After: US Advocacy Group Trains Fighters in Afghanistan; Alleged to Be CIA Front

1982-1989: US Turns Blind Eye to BCCI and Pakistani Government Involvement in Heroin Trade

February 11, 1982: CIA Is Given Green Light to Take Part in Illegal Drug Trade in Afghanistan

1984: Bin Laden Develops Ties with Pakistani ISI and Afghan Warlord

1984-1994: CIA Funds Militant Textbooks for Afghanistan

1984 and After: BCCI Dominates Supply Chain of CIA Supplies and Weapons Meant for Mujaheddin

1984 and After: CIA Allegedly Funds Bin Laden’s Main Charity Front
Mid-1980s: US Officials Allegedly Meet Directly with Bin Laden

Mid-1980s: Pakistani ISI and CIA Gain from Drug Production

1987-1991: KSM Works in Afghanistan for Warlord Most Favored by CIA

1988: ’Al-Qaeda’ Possibly the Name of a Computer Database

April 10, 1988: US Government Uninterested in Stopping Drug Trade in Afghanistan

Late 1980s: Ramzi Yousef Recruited by CIA?

February 16, 1989-December 1990: CIA Continues to Work with ‘Blind Sheikh’ and Supports Mujaheddin Despite Soviet Withdrawal from Afghanistan

1999: US Government Ignores ‘Who’s Who’ Book of Al-Qaeda Figures

So it is clear from these headlines that the Soviet War in Afghanistan was an intelligence operation run by the CIA and the ISI. It's even clear that the CIA was making huge profits from the drug money laundering bank(BCCI) and never had any intention in stopping the heroin trade. It's also reported that the mastermind of 9/11 KSM had been working for the CIA and ISI in the 80s and had traveled to the US on a few occasions.

Unmentioned above, is that a CEO of the BCCI for some time was Khalid Bin Mafouz. Bin Mafouz was OBL brother in law, and it was Bin Mafouz and Salem Bin Laden that helped the failure known as George W. Bush get out of bankruptcy by giving his oil company Harken some oil assets in Saudi Arabia.



The global drug politics going on here simply cannot be overlooked when it comes to investigating 9.11

[TheJoker]

Glad you found the link useful. It's much better than 9/11myths or debunking9/11 or whatever **** website sqealpiggy mimmics.

Lets try putting these pieces together using the 9/11 timeline.


So it is clear from these headlines that the Soviet War in Afghanistan was an intelligence operation run by the CIA and the ISI. It's even clear that the CIA was making huge profits from the drug money laundering bank(BCCI) and never had any intention in stopping the heroin trade. It's also reported that the mastermind of 9/11 KSM had been working for the CIA and ISI in the 80s and had traveled to the US on a few occasions.

Unmentioned above, is that a CEO of the BCCI for some time was Khalid Bin Mafouz. Bin Mafouz was OBL brother in law, and it was Bin Mafouz and Salem Bin Laden that helped the failure known as George W. Bush get out of bankruptcy by giving his oil company Harken some oil assets in Saudi Arabia.



The global drug politics going on here simply cannot be overlooked when it comes to investigating 9.11

and all of what you just wrote does nothing to address the physical evidence... it's a loose set of connections spanning decades which has no physical evidence attached to flight 77 or 9/11... It's interesting, but does nothing to prove anything. In a court of law all you just wrote would be circumstantial evidence. In other words, it only supports the assertion indirectly that there is a conspiracy beyond Al-Qaeda, it does nothing to prove anything though.

Honestly, if you can prove it, go ahead because I would be very interested to read it and have my opinion changed. As it stands with the evidence available the official account more than adequately describes the events regarding physical findings.

[Panopticon]

Alleged Hijacker's Flight Training: http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...light_training

1996-August 2000: Ahmed Alghamdi and Other Hijackers Reportedly Connected to US Military Base

April 30-Early September 1996: Hani Hanjour Studies English in Northern California; Enrolls at Aeronautics Academy

October 1996-Late April 1999: Hani Hanjour Associates with FBI Suspects

October 1996-December 1997: Hani Hanjour Twice Attends Scottsdale Flight School

1998: Hani Hanjour Attends Two More Arizona Flight Schools

April 15, 1999: Hanjour Gets Pilot’s License despite Dubious Skills

May 1999: New Owner with ‘Checkered History’ Takes Over Flight School Later Attended by 9/11 Hijackers

December 1999: Atta and Alshehhi Seen Partying and Taking Flying Lessons in Philippines

Before July 2000: Hijackers Reportedly Living and Attending Flight School in Punta Gorda, Contradicting Official Account

July 6-December 19, 2000: Atta and Alshehhi Attend Huffman Aviation Flight School

Autumn 2000: CIA Front Company Leads to Suspicions CIA Is Attempting to Infiltrate Florida Cell

Writing in 2004, veteran British intelligence officer Colonel John Hughes-Wilson will note that, at the same time as hijacker pilots Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehhi are learning to fly at Huffmann Aviation in Venice, Florida (see July 6-December 19, 2000), “A CIA front company called Air Caribe was also operating out of the very same hangar at Venice airport.” He will go on to comment that “this highly curious coincidence must inevitably raise some suspicions of just how much the CIA really did know before 9/11. Was the CIA trying to infiltrate and ‘double’ the US-based al-Qaeda cell, in the hope of using it against Osama bin Laden’s organization in the future?” [Hughes-Wilson, 2004, pp. 391] The Air Caribe story is originally broken by investigative reporter Daniel Hopsicker, who will publish a book about Atta’s time in Florida in 2004 (see March 2004).

January-February 2001: Flight School’s Repeated Warnings About Hijacker Hanjour Ignored by FAA

February 8-March 12, 2001: Hanjour Practices on Boeing 737 Simulator, but Has Problems

June 19, 2001: Hanjour Fails Night Flying Test

Mid-August 2001: Hijacker Hanjour Still Not Skilled Enough to Fly Solo

August 23, 2001-April 2004: Owner of Flight School Attended by Two 9/11 Hijackers Faces Numerous Legal Suits

March 11, 2002: Flight School Belatedly Receives Hijackers’ Student Visa Approvals

March 2004: Book Examines Atta’s Time in Florida; Portrays Him as Hooked on Drugs and Alcohol

As we see here, the hijackers were far from being extremely religious fundamentalists preparing for a suicide mission. Drinking alchohol and using drugs doesnt ensure you 72 virgins in heaven. In the case of Atta, he was attending Huffman aviation of all flight schools in Florida. Huffman's owners Hilliard, and Dekkers, have both been known to have CIA ties. It is incredibly dubious for Atta to be attending the same flight school that was also reported to have been responsible for a plane that was busted in an Orlando Airport for having 30lbs of heroin.


There is also belief that the drug operation that was originally in mena arkansas was later moved to Huffman Aviation. pretty fishy. I'm leaning more towards Atta being a drug runner than I do him being a suicidal religious fundamentalist.

In the case of Hanjour, it was clear he couldnt fly at all. There is no way in hell he pulled off the maneuver to hit the pentagon.