Russia launches invasion of Ukraine - MASTER THREAD

[Citizen Koba]

Them using torture on suspects just shows you how superior we are in the west. Russia is a barbaric medieval dictatorship.

There wasn't torture at Guantanamo then? Abu Graib? Course we use torture although granted typically we don't do it (publicly) on our own territories. We tend to save it for foreigners and even then ship em off to the territories of our less 'civilised' allies to avoid embarrassment.

[BattlingNelson]

There wasn't torture at Guantanamo then? Abu Graib? Course we use torture although granted typically we don't do it (publicly) on our own territories. We tend to save it for foreigners and even then ship em off to the territories of our less 'civilised' allies to avoid embarrassment.

After a firefight, the danish navy destroyed a pirate vessel and killed most off the west African coast. One pirate got shot in the leg was taken captive on the danish vessel. He got his leg amputated and taken to Denmark. There he got a prostatic limb and incredibly enough also asylum.

That was his ever the top imo, but it went that way because we have laws.

See Kris comments for gitmo. I didn’t like that happening but comparing that to Russian treatment is a stretch imo

[Citizen Koba]

https://stockholmcf.org/torture-and-...021-in-review/

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/12/09/...spread-routine

https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/b...re-in-morocco/

Extraordinary rendition - hundreds of planes, thousands of flights, unknown number of detainees but almost certainly in the thousands, whilst initially only supposed to have come with concrete evidence expanded to include those who were simply suspected. Known destinations, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and numerous other black sites. Many of those taken were never seen again.

This is not in any way to excuse or justify Russian treatment of their detainees but simply to challenge the rationalisation that we are somehow more civilised, better, more noble or less brutal. Why do you think we went to great effort and expense to fly them to notorious torture states? Offer em coffee and some delicious Turkish pastries perhaps?

Course it's a somewhat personal issue for me since my own father went through the torture prisons under the Greek junta (which was incidentally supported by both the US and UK as part of the struggle against 'communism' in Greece) and from what he told me - although he was understandably very reticent on the subject - his experiences gel very closely with what I read about torture in Turkey. Electric shocks, being hung suspended from a hook in the ceiling and beaten with rubber hoses.

But you know what he said was the worst part? It was the waiting in between torture sessions. The helplessness.

Cold and shivering, aching, and listening to screams and cries and pleading echoing down the hallway as others were tortured and knowing that sometime soon, in a day or two or three your turn would come again.

This is the Kapodistrian Orphanage on Aegina.

aigina_4.png

He was held there for about 6 months

Prior to that he was tortured in the basement cells of the central Police HQ in Athens... get the impression it was maybe a month or two, though I'm not a hundred percent.

Mum says it changed him forever. I never the knew the man he was before though.

Many of the victims kidnapped and flown to Uzbekistan, Morocco or Egypt were held for years before resurfacing. Many were never heard of again.

Other methods of torture known to have been used apart those listed directly above are finger-nail pulling, beating with bats or sticks and even reportedly boiling alive in Uzbekistan although it cannot be known if this was ever used against the detainees taken there by extrodinary renditon.

[BattlingNelson]

There wasn't torture at Guantanamo then? Abu Graib? Course we use torture although granted typically we don't do it (publicly) on our own territories. We tend to save it for foreigners and even then ship em off to the territories of our less 'civilised' allies to avoid embarrassment.

Regarding abu graib, I believe it wasn’t the system, but acts of individualism dual soldiers that also happened to be brought to justice subsequently. Has that happened to the murderers and rapists from bucha? To the Wagner it’s killing a man with a sledgehammer? And so on and on….

[Citizen Koba]

Regarding abu graib, I believe it wasnât the system, but acts of individualism dual soldiers that also happened to be brought to justice subsequently. Has that happened to the murderers and rapists from bucha? To the Wagner itâs killing a man with a sledgehammer? And so on and onâ¦.

Yes. Abu Graib does indeed seem to have principally the actions of individuals - ordinary servicemen and women given absolute power over other human beings - much like a tragic real life version of the Stanford experiments. There's a lesson for all of us in there about the nature of humanity and the corrosive influence of power.

However the abuses there - and reportedly at various other sites around Iraq - were only ever brought to light and punished due to the diligent actions of dedicated reporters. Had they never been made public it is unlikely those who perpetrated those monstronsities would ever have been brought to justice and if the military didn't already know and turn a blind eye most likely the matter would have been brushed under the carpet when they did find out (as we know has been the case with many other crimes commited by the military).

In short the perpetrators at Abu Ghraib were punished because they were caught red-handed and brought embarrassment upon the US and it's military. It's instructive to look at what happened when the ICC attempted to investigate war crimes allegations against both US and UK servicemen in less clear cut cases however. (I'll link when I get back from the school run)

We don't know what precisely happened at Bucha but we do know that Ms Denisova lied about rape and sexual assault claims because she acknowledged when she was fired a month or so later although it's not clear specifically which instances she lied about. We also don't know exact numbers of those killed or the exact circumstances although eye witness reports do acknowledge that there was armed Ukrainian resistance during the occupation of the village.

That said, no I'm quite sure any Russian units involved at Bucha will go unpunished just as many Western units have gone unpunished for their crimes where the information space has been far more tightly controlled, and yes, I'm also quite sure any living Wagner guys who commited atrocities will also go unpunished.

[BattlingNelson]

This guy here puts forth some objective oddities that points towards the crocus terro attack was an inside job again.

[Kris Silver]

There wasn't torture at Guantanamo then? Abu Graib? Course we use torture although granted typically we don't do it (publicly) on our own territories. We tend to save it for foreigners and even then ship em off to the territories of our less 'civilised' allies to avoid embarrassment.

You're a well read, clever, well informed guy Koba mate.

More than I, I'll happily admit with full credit.

I do wonder though, if a slight negative of it could be. That you've read so much of the ills of just about every country, that it's turned you into a cynical bastard that can no longer distinguish the scale, proportions of ills by each country, compared to one another.

I'll say one thing though. You've gone a whole post or two without saying the word hegemony.

[Vlad_]

Instead of posting this, maybe you should be asking yourself why the FSB and Putin’s strongmen took almost an hour and a half to breach the building, leaving people inside dying of their wounds and smoke inhalation. The same clowns who walk the streets with their scary masks and uniforms ready to beat up an old lady for supporting Navalny, yet when to it comes to a real threat they were just standing there waiting for civilians to come out to tell them that the terrorists were long gone.

As for the Ukraine conspiracy BS, even if Zelensky had been standing at the border on the Ukrainian waiting for them with bouquets of flowers, what about the Russian side? They would just drive across Russia and straight past the border without bumping into any Russian checkpoints? Really? That’s the plan?

[Prince Madison]

So now russia is in the wrong for not rolling out the red carpet for these sick pieces of **** that shot up the concert? people want to see these scumbags pay for what they did , sorry if them videos were a bit too gritty for some of you delicate flowers.... my only complaint about the video I saw is that they didn't let the dog loose on him , you can't try anyone for torture if the 'dog gets loose' and can't be controlled

[Citizen Koba]

You're a well read, clever, well informed guy Koba mate.

More than I, I'll happily admit with full credit.

I do wonder though, if a slight negative of it could be. That you've read so much of the ills of just about every country, that it's turned you into a cynical bastard that can no longer distinguish the scale, proportions of ills by each country, compared to one another.

I'll say one thing though. You've gone a whole post or two without saying the word hegemony.

It's a perfectly legitimate observation my friend, and a thought that does cross my own mind from time to time.

After all I have from youth had strong influences from my father, been surrounded by those who are politically disposed to dwell upon the crimes and inequity of the West rather than it's (genuine) positives and immersed myself in information critical of brutal imperialistic Western policy around the globe. Of course I have also been exposed to the regular pro-Western propaganda every one of us is immersed in every single day through our news media. We just breathe it in with the air of normalcy which tells me that of course my fellow citizens are the good guys and it lets me know which countries are on the naughty list this decade - so I reckon there's some kind of balance.

We all carry our biases man, wouldn't be human without em. I know I do, and you do too. Ever consider that perhaps you go too softly on the crimes of our own states and are too inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, to excuse or to rationalise? Too inclined to accept the narrative that the world really does consist of good guys and bad guys and that 'our side', of course, are the former? Too quick to reflexively dismiss tricky and possibly even dangerous narratives that threaten to upset some of your most deeply cherished assumptions?

I'm sure we both have such thoughts, because honest self reflection is the sign of a healthy and critical mind.

And yeah, I always figure a post ain't really complete without a little hegemony in it... guess you can have too much of a good thing tho.