Whats more rationally believable: The tooth fairy or God/Jesus???

[Spare Moody]

Isnt the purpose of Jesus to save us from hell for committing sins against God which include simply not being christian??
(i.e being NON-christian is immoral?)

If thats true it seems to me many people have the right to be critical and insulted by christianity

that's a good point you pose but i think yer mixing it up a little bit.

it's not so much that refusing Christ is a SIN, but more along the lines that by refusing Christ you are now judged for the sins you've already commited. and, with that in mind, the bible ackowledges that there has never been a living soul besides Christ that is free of sin so basically......without Christ, this sin is now condemning you.

i know it's kind've a morbid comparission but think of AIDS. AIDS does not kill you. AIDS simply disables your immune system to fight off common diseases that can normally kill you. if your immune system is healthy then these diseases couldn't kill you.

well Christ is like the immune system and the sins are like the common diseases. by refusing Christ then you're allowing these common diseases to destroy you. so you're not necessarily committing an IMMORAL act by refusing Christ, you're just allowing the immoral acts you've already committed to get you in trouble.

therefore, refusing Christ is not immoral and it's incorrect to assume that Christians have a right to consider non-believers immoral. that's what those bumperstickers mean when they say "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

now whether you agree with all of this is your business and i'm not tryin to open a can of worms with it. not tryin to be preachy either but am just answering your inquiry on whether Christians should consider all non-believers immoral.

[DTF]

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, ****phobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” -Richard Dawkins

[squealpiggy]

Squealy, like I said, I have no problem with you not believing in God. The issue for me is, why are atheists so offended by Christmas or the thought of believing in a higher being?

Your comparison to the tooth fairy or any other fictional character is so way off, I don't understand how a person of your intelligence tries to make that analogy.

I didn't make that comparison. From a scientific viewpoint to a child there is probably more evidence that the tooth fairy is real than Jesus. Let me explain: A child loses a tooth. They are advised by a trusted authority (their parent) that the tooth fairy will take the tooth in the night and replace it with money. When they wake the tooth is gone, and money is left. There is tangible evidence of the presence of the tooth fairy. There is no such evidence of the existence of Jesus. The roles are reversed later in life when it is revealed that there never was a tooth fairy, whereas concluding that a man called Jesus doesn't live in the sky tends to be the result of a personal epiphany of sorts.

Whether it be Christ, Buddha, Muhammad or any other "philosopher" (let's use that term to take away belief). They were REAL PEOPLE

There is no reliable evidence that Jesus was a real person, though I tend to think that there was based on the unreliable sources.

But why the attacks on people of faith? Why the attacks on Christmas? I mean if I was an atheist, I wouldn't celebrate Christmas, it's the celebration of Jesus' birth. Just like Easter is about his SUPPOSED ressurection, not some bunny rabbit that lays eggs. It's just not the same thing.

Easter is a secular fertility festival that takes place at the time of the vernal equinox and predates Christianity. It is celebrated as the time of the ressurection of Jesus by Christians but there is a secular festival which takes place at the same time. Christmas is a secular solstice festival that coincides with a Christian religious feast day of the same name.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge there is an opposite to everything? Look at nature, it exists time and time again in nature.

I disagree. It's very subjective to see opposites everywhere you look.

not necessarily. i conclude that i'm not getting hit by a bus today because i've never been hit by a bus before, don't know anyone who has been, and know basic safety measures. so it's really just an issue of personal experience just like one's religious decisions and ideals. but obviously the bus example is a much more black and white scenario than every factor one takes into consideration when accepting divine faith.

I am addressing the argument that as you cannot disprove God then it is logical to believe in God. You cannot disprove that you will be hit by a bus today therefore you should spend every day worrying about buses.

I understand that faith is more complex than this, but I was addressing that one aspect.

when you compare one's diety to a fairytale then you're being condescending whether you realize it or not.

I didn't make that comparison. Besides which I'm somewhat resentful of the notion that I am not allowed to question religion because I might upset someone. There is literally no other philosophy that someone could hold which is considered beyond reproach.

your initial post asserted christian belief to have disgust and rejection towards sinners and i was pointing out that that's not the case.

I would argue that most Christians are judgmental towards sinners and non-believers.

it's understandable when you say there's some christian knuckleheads out there but you're flat out wrong when you think the source of this is Jesus or the bible.

Actually the point of my argument was that Christianity is so often at odds with the teachings of Christ.

you're misinterpreting the relationship of the Trinity. Jesus never proclaimed to be the creator of the rules or the universe but preached that God's rules should be obeyed. another example of this is when Jesus mentions that he himself does not even know when judgement day will come but only God knows.

So is Jesus his own dad or what? The relationship of the trinity is that Jesus is the son, he is the avatar, he is one aspect of God. The egyptian roots of Christianity are pretty plain in the notion of the trinity.

i find it hard to believe that you've only had negative experiences with christians.

I find it hard to believe that you have only had negative experiences with atheists. The truth is that I haven't only had negative experiences with christians.

you've also made dozens of threads about the sillyness of organized religion and have presented them in very sarcastic Bill Maher'ish nature.

I have never once watched Bill Maher. I'll confess that most of the religion stuff is baiting one or two idiots who never fail to rise to it. And to entertain the more secular members. Noone has to read what I write, and I still haven't told any christians that they are going to hell because they think the bible is inerrant.

i'm not talking about ancient stories of the bible. i'm talking about YOU.

According to mainstream Christianity if I "choose" not to believe then I'm going to hell. That doesn't sound like free will. If I stand the chance of going to prison for being critical of the government do I have free speech? I can say what I want, but that fact that I will be punished means that it isn't free.

Free will does not exist in Christianity because if you don't follow the rules you're toast!

[Spare Moody]

I am addressing the argument that as you cannot disprove God then it is logical to believe in God. You cannot disprove that you will be hit by a bus today therefore you should spend every day worrying about buses.

I understand that faith is more complex than this, but I was addressing that one aspect.

yeah i know. and i agree with you that proving God exists by saying you can't prove he doesn't is a weak arguement in the case for him.

I didn't make that comparison. Besides which I'm somewhat resentful of the notion that I am not allowed to question religion because I might upset someone. There is literally no other philosophy that someone could hold which is considered beyond reproach.

you've definetely made very similar comparisons but whether they're word for word i can't say exactly. again, nobody said you're not allowed to question religion. i understand you like to style your points as bait to fuck with people but it seems that you'd also like to carry on an intelligent conversation so, why jab at the kids when you know you're gonna get the same aggitated replies?

I would argue that most Christians are judgmental towards sinners and non-believers.

Actually the point of my argument was that Christianity is so often at odds with the teachings of Christ.

the followers are at times but there are still an extremely large amount of examples where Christianity has touched lives in a positive way.

So is Jesus his own dad or what? The relationship of the trinity is that Jesus is the son, he is the avatar, he is one aspect of God. The egyptian roots of Christianity are pretty plain in the notion of the trinity.

to be honest, i've never really been that good in explaining the whole trinity thing. but i do know that Jesus is not what you said he was in that earlier post.

I find it hard to believe that you have only had negative experiences with atheists. The truth is that I haven't only had negative experiences with christians.

it is what it is. whaddya gonna do. we can't swap memories and verify anything so it's pretty much moot at this point.

and I still haven't told any christians that they are going to hell because they think the bible is inerrant.

we already discussed this point a few pages back.

According to mainstream Christianity if I "choose" not to believe then I'm going to hell. That doesn't sound like free will. If I stand the chance of going to prison for being critical of the government do I have free speech? I can say what I want, but that fact that I will be punished means that it isn't free.

Free will does not exist in Christianity because if you don't follow the rules you're toast!

my buddy Russ (who's an atheist) says it best regarding hell: "Since there is no hell, i've got nothin to worry about."
so, if you're going to lay claim to being an atheist, then why are you trying to act victimized whenever someone says you're going to hell?

now, we could dig into a bottomless rabbit whole on the whole theory of free will so that's not gonna get anywhere. but in regards to it being Bible-specific, God gave free will back in the garden of eden. prior to that, man didn't have a choice but to serve God because there simply was no such thing as an alternative. man had absolutely no concept of chosing the latter. but what you're saying is that choosing something favorable vs. unfavorable means that you don't have a choice. that's simply not the case if you use the free will that's referenced in the Bible.

[squealpiggy]

to be honest, i've never really been that good in explaining the whole trinity thing. but i do know that Jesus is not what you said he was in that earlier post.

Try this on for size. God is God the father. Jesus was God the Son and will be God the Son again while on earth. When not on earth following the ascension God the Son and God the Father are one. So it God the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's influence on earth when not embodied by Jesus. So while in heaven God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one and the same, but God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are the agents of God the Father on earth.

I know some people think I don't get it but there it is. Catholic upbringing innit.

my buddy Russ (who's an atheist) says it best regarding hell: "Since there is no hell, i've got nothin to worry about."
so, if you're going to lay claim to being an atheist, then why are you trying to act victimized whenever someone says you're going to hell?

Because it is petty and unpleasant. Some kid threatened to kick the **** out of me. There was no way that he was actually capable of doing so but I still found it offensive and intrusive.

now, we could dig into a bottomless rabbit whole on the whole theory of free will so that's not gonna get anywhere. but in regards to it being Bible-specific, God gave free will back in the garden of eden. prior to that, man didn't have a choice but to serve God because there simply was no such thing as an alternative. man had absolutely no concept of chosing the latter. but what you're saying is that choosing something favorable vs. unfavorable means that you don't have a choice. that's simply not the case if you use the free will that's referenced in the Bible.

Well according to Genesis people are constantly and immediately punished for failing to obey the word of god. If you really want to get biblical about it then you're talking about the Old Testament in which virtually no-one has any free will whatsoever. All manner of unpleasant things happen to people for arbitrary transgressions (including refusing the kick the **** out of a prophet at his request then being eaten by a lion ffs). The New Testament Hell is an extension of that. I can't see how you can believe in hell and still think you have free will.

Incidentally some mormons called at my house last night. I tried to be polite and I told them that I wasn't interested. They then said "Can you think of anyone else who lives on this street who could benefit from our message?". I said "I can't think of anyone in the world who could benefit from your message..."

[Spare Moody]

Try this on for size. God is God the father. Jesus was God the Son and will be God the Son again while on earth. When not on earth following the ascension God the Son and God the Father are one. So it God the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's influence on earth when not embodied by Jesus. So while in heaven God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one and the same, but God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are the agents of God the Father on earth.

I know some people think I don't get it but there it is. Catholic upbringing innit.

yeah it's kinda like that but i couldn't shed much more light on it than that.

Because it is petty and unpleasant. Some kid threatened to kick the **** out of me. There was no way that he was actually capable of doing so but I still found it offensive and intrusive.

haha!! seriously?? if some kid said he was gonna kick my ass i'd get a slight chuckle at best. i think you've got some major pride or anger issues if you'd let a kid (whom you already know would get his ass whooped) get you all riled up.

Well according to Genesis people are constantly and immediately punished for failing to obey the word of god. If you really want to get biblical about it then you're talking about the Old Testament in which virtually no-one has any free will whatsoever. All manner of unpleasant things happen to people for arbitrary transgressions (including refusing the kick the **** out of a prophet at his request then being eaten by a lion ffs). The New Testament Hell is an extension of that. I can't see how you can believe in hell and still think you have free will.

yeah but yer beating the same issue. free will, as referenced in the bible, is not the ability to chose from two fair decisions but is merely the OPTION to be able to chose. you keep refering to the free will that we discuss in political science and philosophy classes when they say **** like "is this country TRULY free??"
the outcome of the decisions is irrelevent and it's not an issue of whether you personally find certain bible stories fair either.

Incidentally some mormons called at my house last night. I tried to be polite and I told them that I wasn't interested. They then said "Can you think of anyone else who lives on this street who could benefit from our message?". I said "I can't think of anyone in the world who could benefit from your message..."

i never understood those guys. i'm wondering what their close ratio is. who seriously makes a spiritual commitment based on a guy cold calling them?? it's good sales training though for the business world. definitely incorporates the whole "shoot for the stars to hit the moon" tactic...

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Squeely , again you missed the WHOLE POINT. I can't do this anymore because it always gets turned into GOD vs NO GOD.

Whether you believe that Jesus was a real person or not, he was. There is historical data to prove it outside the Bible which I already linked earlier. You keep trying to dissprove in your argument that Jesus isn't God or that God isn't real, I don't care about that argument. Intelligent, rational Atheist that i have talked to, look at Jesus as nothing more than a philosopher who inspired millions during his life and after it. And believe it or not, even admire his teachings of peace and tolerance.

The fact that Christmas or Easter and the dates they are held in, pre-date Christianity is IRRELEVANT. Because people don't bash the Winter Solstice or the Equinox, the bash Christmas and Easter.

Those two dates, whether Christ was born on them or resurrected on them is irrelevant. What's important is to understand the majority of the planet sees them as celebrations of Jesus' life and death.

I still don't understand why you can't see that. The argument you keep coming at me with is the same tired argument I don't want any part of because no one ever gets anywhere with it.

My only point was, why do atheist take Christmas and Easter and other religious holidays in such disdain? I don't get it. If Jesus is the Bunny Rabbit and Allah is Santa Clause, why does it bother you so much?

It seems like their is a growing movement her in the U.S at least, to attack Christianity or any other religion for that matter. Why? If you don't think it's real, then why bother with it? Does it bother you so much to see a cross or Christmas tree? Or a crecent moon? I don't get it....

[The Noose]

My only point was, why do atheist take Christmas and Easter and other religious holidays in such disdain? I don't get it. If Jesus is the Bunny Rabbit and Allah is Santa Clause, why does it bother you so much?

It seems like their is a growing movement her in the U.S at least, to attack Christianity or any other religion for that matter. Why? If you don't think it's real, then why bother with it? Does it bother you so much to see a cross or Christmas tree? Or a crecent moon? I don't get it....

Ive never heard of atheists attacking or protesting against christmas. That sounds ridiculous.

Does anyone on this site object to Christmas?

[Spare Moody]

Ive never heard of atheists attacking or protesting against christmas. That sounds ridiculous.

Does anyone on this site object to Christmas?

this is what he was referring to:
http://www.411mania.com/politics/columns/92193

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Ive never heard of atheists attacking or protesting against christmas. That sounds ridiculous.

Does anyone on this site object to Christmas?

Then you are not keeping on current events. Just last week there was a sign by some atheist group put up next to a nativity scene in Washington St denouncing religion basically calling it a hoax and calling it the root of all peoples problems and saying Jesus is a fictional character and the Bible is full of lies.

Thos types of things are happening all over the country and I don't understand why. If you don't believe, then you don't believe. Why persecute the people who do though?

They want to take away "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, "in God We Trust" away from our money, do away with organized prayer......it's happening every day.

I mean just the other day and employer told his employees they couldn't say "Merry Christmas", they had to say "Happy Holidays".