The Ten Greatest Heavyweight Championship Clashes

[K-DOGG]

Hmmm
Not a very good list.

Care to say why, presuming you read the criteria?

[Easy-E]

Care to say why, presuming you read the criteria?

Sure.
Throughout the article, titled "The Ten Greatest Heavyweight Title Clashes" you talk about the competition and how Jonhson and Jefferies and Dempsey Tunney do not make the list because the one-sidedness of both contests outweigh the historical significance.
Yet, you have a one sided, first round knockout as your number one pick.
Makes little sense.
Tyson vs Douglass is a little too high, and Foreman Ali should absolutly be in the Top 3.
I would have it as my number one, because everything about it was a Great Heavyweight Clash. One of the most popular fighters of all time, going up against seemingly insurmountable odds and coming out on top.
The fight was very competitive, and at the time of the stoppage, was an extremly close fight, with the majority of people (incorrectly I may add) having Foreman ahead.
Obviously the Thriller should be in there, because it is one of the greatest fights ever.
Your list is better at second glance, though.

[Easy-E]

Oh, and Ali v Liston was massive as well, although the fight wasnt the greatest.

[K-DOGG]

Sure.
Throughout the article, titled "The Ten Greatest Heavyweight Title Clashes" you talk about the competition and how Jonhson and Jefferies and Dempsey Tunney do not make the list because the one-sidedness of both contests outweigh the historical significance.
Yet, you have a one sided, first round knockout as your number one pick.
Makes little sense.
Tyson vs Douglass is a little too high, and Foreman Ali should absolutly be in the Top 3.
I would have it as my number one, because everything about it was a Great Heavyweight Clash. One of the most popular fighters of all time, going up against seemingly insurmountable odds and coming out on top.
The fight was very competitive, and at the time of the stoppage, was an extremly close fight, with the majority of people (incorrectly I may add) having Foreman ahead.
Obviously the Thriller should be in there, because it is one of the greatest fights ever.
Your list is better at second glance, though.

A very articulate rebutle. I disagree; but respecet your opinion.

[Easy-E]

A very articulate rebutle. I disagree; but respecet your opinion.

Thanks.
Im not getting bent out of shape about it, and I think you have the fights that should be there, I just think they should be in a different order.
Its all good, and I gotta give you respect for writing and article I couldnt write. (Heavyweights are not my speciality)

[K-DOGG]

Oh, and Ali v Liston was massive as well, although the fight wasnt the greatest.

Clay-Liston I didn't make it because I didn't want too many of the same "type" of clashes in the list. What I mean is, Braddock-Baer would have been on this list for the sheer magnitude of the upset; but then, along came Clay-Liston, Spinks-Ali, and Douglas-Tyson. The Douglas-Tyson upset was unfathomably huge at the time. In retrospect, sure, we can see why it happened to an extent; but Mike was considered invincible, quite literally...which is why many of his most ardent fans proclaim his greatness even to this day. That's why Douglas-Tyson is on the list where it is....it was that huge of an upset.

[K-DOGG]

Thanks.
Im not getting bent out of shape about it, and I think you have the fights that should be there, I just think they should be in a different order.
Its all good, and I gotta give you respect for writing and article I couldnt write. (Heavyweights are not my speciality)

LOL!!! Thank you. It took me damn near a month to write it because I wanted to compile a list that everyone would agree on.....and finally I accepted that that was absolutely impossible. So, in the end, I went with what I believed and expeted people to disagree. That's part of the reason I listed the "Honorable Mentions" at the end....those fight deserve notation.

[Easy-E]

Clay-Liston I didn't make it because I didn't want too many of the same "type" of clashes in the list. What I mean is, Braddock-Baer would have been on this list for the sheer magnitude of the upset; but then, along came Clay-Liston, Spinks-Ali, and Douglas-Tyson. The Douglas-Tyson upset was unfathomably huge at the time. In retrospect, sure, we can see why it happened to an extent; but Mike was considered invincible, quite literally...which is why many of his most ardent fans proclaim his greatness even to this day. That's why Douglas-Tyson is on the list where it is....it was that huge of an upset.

Yeah, that makes sense.
Those two fights were actully pretty similar in terms of magnitude of the upset, but Douglass v Tyson was a far better fight.

[K-DOGG]

Yeah, that makes sense.
Those two fights were actully pretty similar in terms of magnitude of the upset, but Douglass v Tyson was a far better fight.

Well, something needs to be said for the drama of Clay-Liston when Clay was blinded by a foreign substance, too.

I've often wondered how different history would have been had Dundee not had the sense to calm Cassius down and send him out for the 5th round.

[wmute]

In regards to the portion I emboldened, this is correct; but I always welcome different points of view.

Louis-Schmeling II may not have been comptetitive in the end; but the rest of the criteria were overflowing and, thus, outweighed the fact that it was a blow out. Louis-Schmeling II didn't last much longer than Louis-Paycheck; but it was far more important a bout...which is why I ranked it where I did.

Holyfield-Bowe is where it is because of several reasons. As I stated, the list is comprised of an amalgom of criteria, competitiveness is indeed one of them; but not the only one, and how each criteria relates to the other in the individual bouts is both subjective and varying, depending upon the bout.

Norton and Holmes fought just as hard as Bowe and Holyfield, but for 15 rounds as opposed to 12...and it was a closer contest than Bowe-Holyfield I. Holmes won the WBC title by 1 point on two different cards: a split decision with Holmes winning by only 2 points, so it was more competitive than Bowe-Holyfield, where Evander showcased his heart; but was ultimately beaten relatively easily from a points standard.

Likewise, Conn may have been a light-heavyweight; but the bout places higher than Bowe-Holyfield I becauase of two factors: 1. It was nearly an upset with the smaller Conn dominating the action, which was a complete surprise given Louis's standing....and 2. The dramatics of Louis's come from behind knock-out.

The Thrilla in Manilla was incredibly thrilling; but when you compare the competitiveness of the bout with the other criteria, it just doesn't make it. Frazier was considered shot, more or less, before the bout; and had to campaign actively chasing Ali around the world from fight to fight to even get Ali's interiest. The public wanted Ali-Foreman II; but George had disappeared from the scene. Ali didn't even train as hard for Frazier as he should have, which was reflected in his weighing 224; he expected a quick knock-out. Frazier's doggedness and surprising performance was a delight; but the third clash of these titans didn't really compare with the first because of where both were in their career.

we'll have to disagree:

i see your point on thrilla, and yes it probably lacked the "anticipation" factor. But was it less anticipated than louis-conn or norton-holmes?

louis-schmeling... my point stays: great build up, a world on the edge of WW2, but still... KO1, its just beyond me... i mean can you imagine telling a friend about the build up of the fight (or showing him a doc), then you put on the fight...
and it's 2 mins of domination.

Holyfield-Bowe, Louis-Conn, Norton-Holmes... i see your points but I would still rank the first higher than the latter (norton and conn were probably more of underdogs) (this is just an unresolvable matter of taste, of how you and i weight the criteria mentioned)

From this post it seems like i might think louis-conn and norton-holmes were so-so fights. NOT THE CASE!!!

anyway your list spawned a civilized debate in NSB, how did you do that?!?!