James Toney Is A Victim of His Own Genius

[Kid Achilles]

Don't tell me to get some balls ****face, I call them as I see them and don't give a **** what you think about the fight. I think you don't know how to judge a fight and are clearly biased in favor of Toney, along with a great deal of people on this fight. It's funny that young fans under thirty have Toney by a landslide and older more experienced boxing fans and former fighters (people that know what they're ****ing talking about) have it a close fight.

I have no problem with people who think Toney won but to say he dominated Peter is idiotic. You aren't dominating when you get pushed back and knocked off balance everytime the opponent lands a jab.

[joeytrimble]

lemme ask you this how do ya feel now that you know 90 percent of the boxing world thought james toney ****d sam peters? hows that feeling set on you man

[Neckodeemus]

Hello guys, thanks for taking the time to read my piece, I'm happy to field questions also as I spent the week reading the various threads on this fight.

Firstly the piece was not a fight report per se, it was an opinion piece on the scorecards and the judges performance. I was aware of not wanting to clock in at five pages and I have commended Peter this week on his win. If he goes onto fight for the title then no one can dispute that he has walked a hard road to the title. However the article titled Toney and was an article on his problems with the judges, I was right not to bring Peter in but I did acknowledge that he had performed adequately at times.

As for scoring blows on the shoulders, so are the fans happy to merely tot up points now? Lets get the amateur scoring system in, we all know how accurate that is. In which case, say in five years time, when guys spin around the ring tapping the other guy on his shoulders a la the amateurs we will be happy with boxing? Larry Holmes said it best, if a guy sets himself to hit cleanly and you jab him in his shoulder to off-set his balance it is a legitimate tactic, however you must then force the balance loss with some real blows. Amateurs tip and tap to the shoulders. This is professional boxing, if it gets to the point where three taps to the shoulders is worth more than a blow to the face then boxing is in dire straits.

Also Peter did push Toney back but was it with his jab? Or was it mostly with his bulk and did he not get busted up whilst pushing Toney back with his bulk? I would say he did, if you want to score for Peter on his pushing Toney back with his bulk that is Ok, it works for the WWE, however this is boxing, I can feint a guy with footwork and open up space for a punch, Peter did not do this, he pushed and cuffed. If you don't want boxing to go amateur but are happy for it to go WWE then again we will see the results in five years.

As for credentials, they will be there in the words themselves. Right or wrong, good or bad, opinion or spin, it is well-written.

Toney is a very expert boxer, possibly the best pure boxer in the world right now due to the fact he is doing it beyond his prime and poundage, however he seems to invite negativity due to his attitude and often lethargic conditioning. It pains me to say it but with Toney it may be a case that we will miss our water only when the well runs dry.

Thanks again for taking the time to read my thoughts on this.

[lazyitis]

You say it was a close fight that could have gone either way. Then can you explain 116-111? With a point deduction I might add. You probably can't, so that sir is a robbery.

my ****ing christ. People dont even understand what the term "robbery" means in boxing.

[joeytrimble]

my ****ing christ people dont even understand what the term "fraud" means in boxing...

your a fraud fan if you thought peters won your a fake your a phoney you'd prolly be more well off to sit down and watch the wwf ...

[Neckodeemus]

There are no robberies in boxing, it would require a criminal conspiracy, try telling a secret in a packed gym or backstage at a fight and see how long it stays a secret.

I'm also not against the people who scored the fight for Sam, to each his own, I'm in a position to offer opinions so thought it would be wise to do so, if you went for Sam I'll join you in cheering his WBC title bid. Then he can do the honourable thing and rematch Toney. I am pretty sure he will do this as he seems a very good guy.

Toney insulted Peter and went somewhat beyond the pale so Peter's words of praise carry great weight (if you will pardon the pun).

[jerzeboye]

This will not get James Toney Down!

He will be back better than ever and will no longer leave the decision to the judges but knock his opponents out. This was a great article and i agree with it 100%

[Kid Achilles]

Peter definitely knocked Toney back with his jab every time it connected. I wish I knew how to edit together a video of Peter's highlights in that fight because many, many times Peter would connect with the jab and Toney would then counter and miss because he had been knocked off balance. Rahman (who also won his fight with Toney in my eyes)used a heavy ramrod jab to the same effect.

When you score a jab on the opponent and it knocks him completely off balance, that weighs heavily in the scoring. I will score a glancing blow that knocks someone off balance or hurts them over six beautifully timed flush shots that fail to make the opponent blink. The judges do this as well. A guy who physically moves the other around with his punches is going to have the advantage in scoring. This is what is meant by effective aggression. Otherwise, if you didn't take the relative strength of the punches being thrown into account, the sport would degenerate into two guys looking to slip in a few quick punches and then run for the rest of the round or simply throw a lot of quick slapping shots with nothing on them. We are talking about pro boxing here, not the amateur game.

Again, I'm not against scoring the fight for Toney but he did NOT dominate. If you have Toney winning more than 6 or 7 rounds of that fight, you are biased. That's how I see it.

[Neckodeemus]

That is Ok Kid Achilles, I have no problem with someone scoring the fight for Peter. I had it 116-111 (112 minus the low blow) and don't think a four-point margin is terrible, in fact in a two-round swing it invites the possibility of the draw. What I will say is that Toney clearly won and scoring, plus our perception of it, is going crazy right now in boxing.

Before I look at your points consider this. Both Ricky Hatton and Marco Antonio Barrera recently had close fights, I had both men winning by tight margins but winning nonetheless yet people scream for instant rematches, MAB is fighting one this month. I think we need to accept that fights when scored closely do not immediately mean a rematch should be fought. If Collazo and Juarez both had long-term class surely they would work back into contention and the rematch would come? I advocate that for Toney, I am not crying for a rematch but what I am saying is that this fight, on my view, wasn't terribly close. The real bone of contention is that the judges turned in very odd cards. That is where I feel puzzled.

As stated on here Toney will be back and he must now dust himself off and earn a rematch with Sam as the final decision is irreversable and rightfully so. This is boxing, not anarchy and mob rule.

For me Peter pawed with the jab and was countered, he did his best work with the right but only when Toney lead with the left hook. In the Rahman fight I also felt Rahman was not as good with the jab as he usually is, Toney works the jab very well and Rahman figured this out but landed a fair share of illegal blows. Jab for jab Toney pasted Peter, highlight Peter's jabs by all means but if you highlight Toney's also what will you see? Toney gets touched by the jab and counters, Peter gets hit by the jab and his nose erupts and his mouth is busted plus his eyes swollen, your jab is a stick to beat the other guy up and Toney did it better. I'm not generally susceptible to swelling but jab my head off for 12 rounds and I will bleed and bust. At its very basics Toney stepped in with the jab, you could see this.

Six blows for one is fine if, as you say, the guy is hurt but off-balance? How many guys lose balance on water in the corner? On the ring logo? Or because the other guy is a southpaw and they keep getting feet tangled up? If a guy is off-balance you could push him over, would that be a 10-8? How many times did US fans boo Naseem Hamed for pushing guys over when they missed him? Are we going to overlook body slams next and count them in the scoring? A glancing blow could be a push and a push is going to put you off-balance even if you have set your legs, that is why this is boxing and not pushing. For an example of the difference betwen pushing someone over and hitting them with a light shot and putting them over look at Hamed pushing his guys over and then watch Hagler-Vito II, Hagler steps, moves, gets Vito square-on then steps in with a straight shot that puts his guy down. He hits him on the chin also. That is boxing, not a push in sight.

Finally, you say you can see Toney as a winner, fine, but if you can't spot him more than 6 rounds the fight would be a draw (before the deduction, after which it is Toney by 1). To give Toney the win you can see yourself you'd need to give him seven rounds straight off the bat, unless you see it 6-6 with the point taken off. I disregard 10-10 rounds as I've never scored one. You can easily see 8-4 for Toney.

[crold1]

james whole career has been this way. Because he doesn't fight three minutes a round, his fights are always close. Look at McCallum II...much like this fight it was one guy advancing with consistent pressure and Toney landing in combination in spots. he's a victim of his conditioning as much as genius.