Why did Mike Tyson duck Ray Mercer?

[robertzimmerman]

You're speaking nonsense and missing a lot of information. I will just repeat the post I made earlier in this thread. Try to learn if you can:

So Tyson fans don't believe he ducked opponents in the 90s. Lets look a little deeper into his 90s record. He went 9-3.

He lost to Douglas and Holyfield. The only other good fighters(debatable btw) he faced were Ruddock, Bruno and in 2000 against Golota which was a NC. Only the latter 2 were after prison, when Don King clearly paved an easy road for Tyson even with the Holyfield fights which they only accepted because they thought Evander was way past it and an easy win.

Looking at all the scrubs he faced inbetween you're gonna say he couldn't have faced Tua, Ike, Bowe, Wlad & Vitali, Mercer, Byrd, Foreman, Moorer? Who were all good/great fighters, all held a title at some point and almost all of them were a bad stylistic matchup for him.

But Mike was instead content with taking out scrubs like Savarese, Francis, Nielsen, Seldon, Mathis Jr, Norris, Botha etc. Good lord.

Tyson was the biggest name in boxing, everybody wanted to fight him plus this was after Douglas and Holyfield ruined his aura. It wasn't a coincidence. Tyson ducked dangerous opponents. He faced a bunch of scrubs(save Golota who was a known mental case) to get a title shot against the undisputed HW champion FFS.

It was already well known that Tyson ducked a young prime Holyfield and an old Foreman and later Lewis. Why not more? Because the 90s were filled with dangerous HW boxers and Tyson was insecure in and out of the ring.

I haven’t spoken nonsense at all.

What was the point in just reposting your original post?

I don’t need to learn anything.

I lived through the era.

Any talk of him ducking a guy like Bowe is nonsense.

How did Mike duck a young, prime Holyfield?

They were scheduled to fight in 1991 before he was sentenced to prison.

Nobody took Foreman seriously until he’d fought a great fight against Evander. Whilst Mike was in prison, he lost to Tommy and beat Moorer. Mike then lost twice to Evander before Foreman retired.

Lennox was paid step aside money so Mike could fight Evander. At the time, Lennox was on the comeback trail after he’d been stopped by McCall.

If Mike had beaten Evander, I see no reason why we wouldn’t have seen the Lennox fight much earlier than we did. But in 1996 and 1997, there was more demand for a fight with Evander than what there was for Lennox.

[robertzimmerman]

He didn't spend the entire 90s in prison. He was back in the game in 95. That's another half a decade he could have fought all the dangerous opponents mentioned.

But literally the only good one he faced was Evander Holyfield and that's ONLY because Evander was thought to be washed up and easy pickings.

Tyson was on a bum of the month club tour post-prison. There is no denying that he ducked many fighters.

You know why Tyson gets SO much **** from historians for not fighting the best? It's because he easily COULD HAVE. We can't rag on greats like Marciano, Johnson, Dempsey, Wlad. They simply did not have the option to fight many great fighters, almost nobody great was around.

But Tyson was in the strongest or second strongest era ever and fought almost nobody but Evander and Lewis, both crushed him. Inexcusable.

They all would have crushed him because he would have been beaten before going into the ring. That's why he ducked them.

More nonsense.

It wasn’t inexcusable at all.

Mike’s last top 10 opponent (and fight) before he went to prison, was his rematch against Ruddock in June, 1991.

His first top 10 opponent after his release was against Bruno in March, 1996.

That’s almost a 5 year period.

He then fought Evander twice, where he was banned after his disgraceful antics in the rematch.

His comeback was against Botha right at the end of the decade in 1999.

Those are the facts.

All of your answers to your questions fall within that time period.

If he hadn’t have gone to prison and spent almost 5 years away from the top 10, you’d have a point.

If he’d have come out of prison and fought regularly for the rest of the decade, you’d have a point.

That didn’t happen.

He missed half of 1991, all of 1992, 1993 and 1994, as well as the first half of 1995.

His first fight back was in the summer of 1995.

Go and look what happened in the division during that period.

He was then obviously brought back slowly as he’d not fought for a long time. He had to have a few tune ups.

He then fought Evander twice and received a ban.

He only fought 6 times in an 8 year period.

So when was he meant to fight all of these guys who he apparently ducked?

Yes, AFTER he’d lost twice to Evander and come back from his ban he took easy fights. I agree with you there. There’s no way he’d have beaten guys like Vitali. And he was purposely steered away from fighting dangerous guys in order to cash in against Lennox. But he doesn’t deserve criticism for ducking guys like Morrison, Bowe, Moorer and Foreman etc.

If he hadn’t have missed almost 5 years of fighting top 10 ranked opposition, then I don’t see why he wouldn’t have fought those fights had they have been viable. And I t’s pretty ****** to label him as being a ducker of top fighters when he fought Evander twice before fighting Lennox, who were the top 2 fighters of his era.

[hugh grant]

One critisc m of Tyson is he avoided iron chin fighters. Even if they only hit as hard as Paul malignaggi. He liked you to fall once he hit you.

[BKM-]

More nonsense.

It wasn’t inexcusable at all.

Mike’s last top 10 opponent (and fight) before he went to prison, was his rematch against Ruddock in June, 1991.

His first top 10 opponent after his release was against Bruno in March, 1996.

That’s almost a 5 year period.

He then fought Evander twice, where he was banned after his disgraceful antics in the rematch.

His comeback was against Botha right at the end of the decade in 1999.

Those are the facts.

All of your answers to your questions fall within that time period.

If he hadn’t have gone to prison and spent almost 5 years away from the top 10, you’d have a point.

If he’d have come out of prison and fought regularly for the rest of the decade, you’d have a point.

That didn’t happen.

He missed half of 1991, all of 1992, 1993 and 1994, as well as the first half of 1995.

His first fight back was in the summer of 1995.

Go and look what happened in the division during that period.

He was then obviously brought back slowly as he’d not fought for a long time. He had to have a few tune ups.

He then fought Evander twice and received a ban.

He only fought 6 times in an 8 year period.

So when was he meant to fight all of these guys who he apparently ducked?

Yes, AFTER he’d lost twice to Evander and come back from his ban he took easy fights. I agree with you there. There’s no way he’d have beaten guys like Vitali. And he was purposely steered away from fighting dangerous guys in order to cash in against Lennox. But he doesn’t deserve criticism for ducking guys like Morrison, Bowe, Moorer and Foreman etc.

If he hadn’t have missed almost 5 years of fighting top 10 ranked opposition, then I don’t see why he wouldn’t have fought those fights had they have been viable. And I t’s pretty ****** to label him as being a ducker of top fighters when he fought Evander twice before fighting Lennox, who were the top 2 fighters of his era.

You have no point about Evander Holyfield because they only fought him because they thought he was finished. His performances against Holyfield also do your argument no good, because he showed what a coward he was(headbutting Holyfield himself to get out of the fight, losing heart. And getting himself dq'd in the rematch to get out of it) and only prove my point that Tyson ducked the 90s best.

You want to stick to the facts? Here are the list of opponents he faced during that timeframe:

Mathis Jr.
Seldon
Tillman
Stewart
McNeely
Bruno
Norris
Botha
Ruddock
Douglas
Holyfield

4 of those were before prison(Ruddock was good, Stewart a journeyman, Tillman a bum, Douglas a journeyman who brutally KO'd him)

3 of those were before Holyfield, who he only faced because he thought he was done(and ducked him in 90 by postponing their match with a "rib injury").

Wether he was past his prime or not during this is irrelevant but I just showed you above that nearly all of those fights were when he at the top of the division.

He had time to fight those bums and duck Lewis/Holyfield etc. but never faced all the other dangerous opponents in the 90s who pretty much all posed a threat to him.

I didn't say he should have fought ALL of them. But literally anyone like Foreman, Bowe, Tua, Ibeabuchi, Mercer etc. were a much better choice than McNeely, Mathis Jr. or Tillman, Stewart, the late 90s/early 00s bum of the month tour.

As far as your argument goes of Tyson needing tune-ups to get back into it. 1-There's a difference between a tune-up vs another contender and a literal unranked bum and 2-If you're one of the highest ranked boxers in the world you should still be facing the best in the world even if you're coming off a loss or layoff.

You atleast admit to some of his ducking but you're still a typical Tyson fanboy at heart. It would be impossible for you to accept that he was not what you think he was. A bully with cowardly traits. The story of a terrified prime Tyson yelling at Don King refusing to fight old George Foreman, that's what defines him.

[BKM-]

One critisc m of Tyson is he avoided iron chin fighters. Even if they only hit as hard as Paul malignaggi. He liked you to fall once he hit you.

Which means he would have lost to:
Foreman
Mercer
Tua
Vitali
McCall
Ibeabuchi

All of these men have ATG chins, and all of these men were fighting when Tyson was one of the top HW's.

Tyson never dared to face them. They would have taken his shots, survived, dragged him into later rounds and finished him.

[hugh grant]

Which means he would have lost to:
Foreman
Mercer
Tua
Vitali
McCall
Ibeabuchi

All of these men have ATG chins, and all of these men were fighting when Tyson was one of the top HW's.

Tyson never dared to face them. They would have taken his shots, survived, dragged him into later rounds and finished him.

The top 4 in your list possibly would have beat tyson

[REDEEMER]

You have no point about Evander Holyfield because they only fought him because they thought he was finished. His performances against Holyfield also do your argument no good, because he showed what a coward he was(headbutting Holyfield himself to get out of the fight, losing heart. And getting himself dq'd in the rematch to get out of it) and only prove my point that Tyson ducked the 90s best.

You want to stick to the facts? Here are the list of opponents he faced during that timeframe:

Mathis Jr.
Seldon
Tillman
Stewart
McNeely
Bruno
Norris
Botha
Ruddock
Douglas
Holyfield

4 of those were before prison(Ruddock was good, Stewart a journeyman, Tillman a bum, Douglas a journeyman who brutally KO'd him)

3 of those were before Holyfield, who he only faced because he thought he was done(and ducked him in 90 by postponing their match with a "rib injury").

Wether he was past his prime or not during this is irrelevant but I just showed you above that nearly all of those fights were when he at the top of the division.

He had time to fight those bums and duck Lewis/Holyfield etc. but never faced all the other dangerous opponents in the 90s who pretty much all posed a threat to him.

I didn't say he should have fought ALL of them. But literally anyone like Foreman, Bowe, Tua, Ibeabuchi, Mercer etc. were a much better choice than McNeely, Mathis Jr. or Tillman, Stewart, the late 90s/early 00s bum of the month tour.

As far as your argument goes of Tyson needing tune-ups to get back into it. 1-There's a difference between a tune-up vs another contender and a literal unranked bum and 2-If you're one of the highest ranked boxers in the world you should still be facing the best in the world even if you're coming off a loss or layoff.

You atleast admit to some of his ducking but you're still a typical Tyson fanboy at heart. It would be impossible for you to accept that he was not what you think he was. A bully with cowardly traits. The story of a terrified prime Tyson yelling at Don King refusing to fight old George Foreman, that's what defines him.

The Holyfield fight never happened because Lou Duva priced Holyfield out first ,he complicated things .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-723b62ebb4f1/

[2Shotz]

Post prison he signed a huge $$$$ deal w King to feast on scrubs and Holyfield derailed it. Fact is Mike made a fortune from NOT facing all
comers plus he was/is a notorious head case. Having written this, I would’ve loved to have seen him vs Tua, Mercer, Vitali, Vlad, etc and I wouldn’t count him out against them neither. Even in the 90’s, depressed & unmotivated, Mike could fight!

[LoadedWraps]

I guess Mike Tyson is the first boxer in history to peak at 20 and fall off a cliff at 22, no?

And people still think he's the baddest. LMAO. I won't be surprised if he gets sparked by Roy Jones in the pensioner bout despite all the fancy videos he keeps releasing. LMAO.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news here but what rants you make to a community of purists will have no impact whatsoever on how the world at large views Tyson, he was a superstar, an icon.

[robertzimmerman]

BKM,

You have no point about Evander Holyfield because they only fought him because they thought he was finished. His performances against Holyfield also do your argument no good, because he showed what a coward he was(headbutting Holyfield himself to get out of the fight, losing heart. And getting himself dq'd in the rematch to get out of it) and only prove my point that Tyson ducked the 90s best.

I don’t know how you have the audacity to accuse me of being a biased Tyson fanboy.

If he’d have fought Foreman, who lost to Evander and Tommy, but not fought Evander, you’d be accusing him of fighting a guy in his 40’s and accusing him of ducking Evander. It doesn’t matter what you think. Mike fought Evander twice and Lennox. They were the best 2 fighters of the 90’s along with Bowe.

What he did in the rematch with Evander was disgraceful and it can’t be justified. But we both know that Evander was extremely dirty where he deliberately butted Mike in both fights.

You want to stick to the facts? Here are the list of opponents he faced during that timeframe:

Mathis Jr.
Seldon
Tillman
Stewart
McNeely
Bruno
Norris
Botha
Ruddock
Douglas
Holyfield

4 of those were before prison(Ruddock was good, Stewart a journeyman, Tillman a bum, Douglas a journeyman who brutally KO'd him)

3 of those were before Holyfield, who he only faced because he thought he was done(and ducked him in 90 by postponing their match with a "rib injury").

What you have listed above is absolutely meaningless without applying context. First off, an average fighter fights 3 fights per year. That’s 30 fights across a decade. Some guys would fight 40 times within that period. Yet Mike only fought 13 times in 10 years.

Now break them down, applying both logic and context.

He lost to Douglas right at the start of the decade, in one of the biggest shocks in the history of the sport. Douglas wasn’t a journeyman. He was actually a very competent fighter on his day. He was just terribly undisciplined. Now after that shocking loss, nobody begrudged Mike having 2 easy fights. So you can’t in any way criticise him for fighting Stewart and Tillman after what had happened in Tokyo.

He then fought Ruddock twice, in 2 great fights. Ruddock was seen as a dangerous opponent at the time. Afterwards, he signed to fight Evander, who’d just beaten Foreman. If it hadn’t have been for his trial and his following prison sentence, they would have fought.

Although he spent 3 years in prison, by the time of his release, he hadn’t fought in over 4 years. Because his last pre prison fight had been the rematch with Ruddock in June, 1991, and his first fight after being released was against McNeeley in August, 1995. So who was he going to fight after 4 years of inactivity? He was hardly going to fight anybody in the top 10. After 4 years out, he was always going to have a few tune ups. Anybody would have done the same thing in his position. After 2 easy fights, he then saw an easy opportunity to fight for Bruno’s title before fighting Evander. Now if he’d have beaten Evander, I’m sure we’d have seen other big fights like one against Lewis.

Wether he was past his prime or not during this is irrelevant but I just showed you above that nearly all of those fights were when he at the top of the division.

And I’ve just broken down why he fought who he did and at what point. Bowe was nowhere before Mike went to prison, and he retired after the Golota fights in 1996. Nobody took Foreman serious until he fought Evander. When Mike was in prison, he beat Moorer but lost to Tommy. When Mike was released, a fight with Evander was much bigger. After Mike had lost to Evander, Foreman then retired. So when was he supposed to fight him? Again, a fight may have happened had Mike not gone to prison. But in 1995-1996, nobody was demanding a Foreman fight. Again, apply some context and look back at what happened at the time.

He had time to fight those bums and duck Lewis/Holyfield etc. but never faced all the other dangerous opponents in the 90s who pretty much all posed a threat to him.

Again, he fought 2 tune ups after his devastating loss to Douglas, and he fought 2 tune ups after 4 years of inactivity. He then fought a top guy in Evander. And he ended up fighting a version of Lennox in 2002, who was arguably a better fighter than what we saw in the mid 90’s. Lennox aged well and got better with Manny.

Guys like Bowe and Tommy were dangerous. Of course they were. But if he’d have fought them and not Evander and Lennox, you’d now be saying that he’d ducked them. Again, the window to fight those 2 was very small. They both retired shortly after Mike’s release.

I didn't say he should have fought ALL of them. But literally anyone like Foreman, Bowe, Tua, Ibeabuchi, Mercer etc. were a much better choice than McNeely, Mathis Jr. or Tillman, Stewart, the late 90s/early 00s bum of the month tour.

Again, you’re talking about a guy who missed half a decade. He had 5 years out, including his ban after the rematch with Evander. You are completely ignorant. There was nothing wrong with fighting Tillman and Stewart after what had happened in Tokyo. And nobody in their right mind is going to come off of a 4 year lay off and pursue a guy like Foreman and Bowe instead of fighting a guy like McNeeley. Have a word with yourself.

As far as your argument goes of Tyson needing tune-ups to get back into it. 1-There's a difference between a tune-up vs another contender and a literal unranked bum and 2-If you're one of the highest ranked boxers in the world you should still be facing the best in the world even if you're coming off a loss or layoff.

Back in the real world, 29 year old fighters who haven’t fought for 4 years don’t pursue the best fighters straight away. And even if they wanted to, their management and promoter wouldn’t allow it for obvious reasons.

You atleast admit to some of his ducking but you're still a typical Tyson fanboy at heart. It would be impossible for you to accept that he was not what you think he was. A bully with cowardly traits. The story of a terrified prime Tyson yelling at Don King refusing to fight old George Foreman, that's what defines him.

I’m not a typical anything.

You’re the one who is being biased and not allowing for circumstances. If he’d have fought 4-5 low level fighters consecutively then you’d have a point. But he didn’t. Again, yes, his management ducked any threat in the late 90’s-early 00’s, in order to cash out against Lennox. Nobody can dispute that. But he didn’t duck anybody prior to his fights with Evander. Lennox was paid step aside money because everyone wanted to see an Evander fight. At the time, Lennox had recently lost to McCall and had struggled with Mercer.

If he hadn’t have missed 5 years of the decade and guys like Tommy and Bowe hadn’t retired early, you’d have a point. But as it stands, you’re just accusing him of ducking any guy who he didn’t fight.