[Please Help] Building a list of fighters throughout history who can beat Fury...

[Cypocryphy]

Was also going to mention in that post and forgot: ideally you are using your hips, you put your whole body into body shots, you want to avoid arm punching.

Yeah! Good point. I've been working on that. NOT that I'm about to go box anyone at the moment. I need to find a new gym, for one. I also need to keep in mind that it's a real bad look to come into work and look like I've had the crap kicked out of me. But it is fun, regardless. Anyway, I've been studying Inoue because he has perfect form, using his hips, core and back muscles.

I actually prefer a philly shell, though I think Tysons peek a boo is beautiful and really effective. I'm just more comfortable in a philly and it feels more natural to me. Either way though the risks of going to the body are the same, you still are exposed upstairs and I think most fighters would rather leave the body open than the face, if having to choose. As fans, its easy to say "why didn't he go to the body" but it's easier said than done, it only takes one nasty counter right on the nose and it can leave you reluctant to look for that opening again the rest of the fight. The worse punch to receive is the counter imo. Its the one shot you really can't slip or roll, or catch, that's why it usually lands flush.

Cool! Are yo of the opinion that the Philly Shell is only good for orthodox fights? Also, I tend to call boxers fighting that way crab style. As in Michigan Crabstyle because there's a lot of backward and forward movement, a lot of catch-counter and forward - back movement like Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Teofimo Lopez Jr.

I think of the Philly Shell as in ... say Nicolino Locche, where he'd use a ton of body movement to slip punches rather than catch them. I mean, he put a lot of emphasis on that. I see traits of that in Saul Alvarez, too, although he's a bit a hybrid.

In the shell, I like that I am able to protect my body mostly with my left arm, and when I am shelled up and low, it's hard for taller guys to look for my body when they already have to reach down to hit my head which is closer, but I'm still pretty hittable, I admit it's my weaker area of defense, and I've had ribs broken in sparring and it really sucks.

Haha. Yeah. I let my arms go a lot, so I can get hit and timed fairly easily. Last time I sparred ... well, it always stars off as sparing and then ends up being a fight ... it was stopped because I was buzzed. I mean, I was more winded than anything but it looks as if I was hurt. And it was really annoying because I had something to prove. It was personal. He'd beat me in a wrestling match, but I don't know **** about wrestling. So I felt as if I were down two on the scorecards. Anyway ....

One thing I love about the peek a boo is that you have both hands up and can let them go upstairs and bring them back really fast, if you mix in some subtle feints you can mess people up.

Yeah! Absolutely. I also have my own theory, which is what I call: "The Code of the Wolverine." And that is: "He who's most aggressive will win even if he is much smaller than his opponent." I call it the "Primal Law of the Wild." But, of course, it has to be done intelligently.

I have two people in mind when I think of this, where their offense is their defense.

The frist is Miguel Berchelt and the second is Oleksandr Khyzhniak.

Here's a fight between Troy Isley and Khyzhniak. Oleksander's aggression is off the charts. I'm just putting this here for other's reading, in case they want to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=940-51h5BsA

I'll definitely pay attention to Yoka, thanks for the mention and it's fun and refreshing to talk some real boxing on here.

Likewise!!! And thank you, man! I appreciate it. I enjoy these intelligent discussions

[LoadedWraps]

Yeah! Good point. I've been working on that. NOT that I'm about to go box anyone at the moment. I need to find a new gym, for one. I also need to keep in mind that it's a real bad look to come into work and look like I've had the crap kicked out of me. But it is fun, regardless. Anyway, I've been studying Inoue because he has perfect form, using his hips, core and back muscles.



Cool! Are yo of the opinion that the Philly Shell is only good for orthodox fights? Also, I tend to call boxers fighting that way crab style. As in Michigan Crabstyle because there's a lot of backward and forward movement, a lot of catch-counter and forward - back movement like Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Teofimo Lopez Jr.

I think of the Philly Shell as in ... say Nicolino Locche, where he'd use a ton of body movement to slip punches rather than catch them. I mean, he put a lot of emphasis on that. I see traits of that in Saul Alvarez, too, although he's a bit a hybrid.



Haha. Yeah. I let my arms go a lot, so I can get hit and timed fairly easily. Last time I sparred ... well, it always stars off as sparing and then ends up being a fight ... it was stopped because I was buzzed. I mean, I was more winded than anything but it looks as if I was hurt. And it was really annoying because I had something to prove. It was personal. He'd beat me in a wrestling match, but I don't know **** about wrestling. So I felt as if I were down two on the scorecards. Anyway ....




Yeah! Absolutely. I also have my own theory, which is what I call: "The Code of the Wolverine." And that is: "He who's most aggressive will win even if he is much smaller than his opponent." I call it the "Primal Law of the Wild." But, of course, it has to be done intelligently.

I have two people in mind when I think of this, where their offense is their defense.

The frist is Miguel Berchelt and the second is Oleksandr Khyzhniak.

Here's a fight between Troy Isley and Khyzhniak. Oleksander's aggression is off the charts. I'm just putting this here for other's reading, in case they want to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=940-51h5BsA



Likewise!!! And thank you, man! I appreciate it. I enjoy these intelligent discussions

Locche is one of my favorite fighters of all time. Id consider him a slick fighter and you can be slick with any style, imo. Slick is just being a slippery, hard to hit fighter. Really, stuff like peekaboo vs philly shell is just a base, a template, but you can do so much with either, and kind of just do your own thing etc. From the shell, I really have a choice of slipping, rolling, catching, and parrying. Largely depends on the situation and the punch. If you throw a jab at me, I like to catch it, but again there is so much I can do with either hand, I can just respond to the same punch in different ways. I can drop down, I can slip left, slip right, I can turn my head to the right, I can catch with either hand, I can parry or push your glove away with my lead hand, I can roll away, I can roll in place, I can drop and pivot, I can pivot and roll, etc.

Similar to in chess how I might not want to use my rook until late in the game, and I'd rather rely on my pawns to initiate offense and carry me while they are on the board, in the ring, I am not going to show you everything, especially early, especially if I don't need to. If you can't stop my jab, why do anything else? I don't need to. And an almost perfect fight, is exactly that way, to me. If I spend the entire 3 mins controlling the center of the ring, and don't use more than my lead hand, by throwing jabs, feints, and other motions that disrupt you, then I dominated you. It's on you to force me to do something else.

As far as southpaw, I don't think what stance you use really makes a difference. Southpaws generally have an advantage against traditional fighters because they are more rare, thus you don't get to spar them as much and it is just a matter of less exposure, not being as used to seeing the other angles.

I think offense can absolutely be defense, if your opponent is overwhelmed by you, he probably isn't throwing much. That depends though on how effective you are too, because many fighters love an aggressive opponent because you can't explode offensively and at the same time, not be exposed when you do it. A great counter puncher who also has good defense will find those windows and then you have a real war, two guys trading, giving and taking.

[Cypocryphy]

Locche is one of my favorite fighters of all time. Id consider him a slick fighter and you can be slick with any style, imo. Slick is just being a slippery, hard to hit fighter.

Yeah! He's Argentinian. I have family in Argentina. Aren't they making a movie on him? I don't know why I think that but I swear I heard something like that. Maybe it's a documentary?

Really, stuff like peekaboo vs philly shell is just a base, a template, but you can do so much with either, and kind of just do your own thing etc. From the shell, I really have a choice of slipping, rolling, catching, and parrying. Largely depends on the situation and the punch. If you throw a jab at me, I like to catch it, but again there is so much I can do with either hand, I can just respond to the same punch in different ways. I can drop down, I can slip left, slip right, I can turn my head to the right, I can catch with either hand, I can parry or push your glove away with my lead hand, I can roll away, I can roll in place, I can drop and pivot, I can pivot and roll, etc.

Yeah. I agree. Very versatile stance. And having the ability to shoulder roll like that gives that extra layer of defense or, rather, a fast way to respond without getting out of position.

Similar to in chess how I might not want to use my rook until late in the game, and I'd rather rely on my pawns to initiate offense and carry me while they are on the board, in the ring, I am not going to show you everything, especially early, especially if I don't need to. If you can't stop my jab, why do anything else? I don't need to. And an almost perfect fight, is exactly that way, to me. If I spend the entire 3 mins controlling the center of the ring, and don't use more than my lead hand, by throwing jabs, feints, and other motions that disrupt you, then I dominated you. It's on you to force me to do something else.

Yeah. Smart ring IQ. I suppose that's wisdom right there Conserving energy for the later rounds. I try to go slow (unless I'm forced not to), and then increases my work rate as the fight goes on. It's a psychological thing as well as physical. If the other guy is starting to get tired but sees that I'm gong just as hard (if not harder), it can do a mind job on the other guy. But as I've gotten older, with injuries, I've slowed down. I do have a great second wind. If I can get to my second wind, and I can control my activity to my liking, with good defense and movement, I can go on forever. I don't know why that is, to be honest. It's strange to me how that works. I mean, as long as I'm not really hurt.

I actually had to have an x-ray not too long ago, and the woman, the x-ray tech said that she had to redo the images because my lungs were so big (or long?). She had to move the machine backward to get my lungs into the whole image. She made big deal about this. I have no idea if that's related, but I thought it was due to so many years running seven to 10 miles almost every day and just working out for years.

As far as southpaw, I don't think what stance you use really makes a difference. Southpaws generally have an advantage against traditional fighters because they are more rare, thus you don't get to spar them as much and it is just a matter of less exposure, not being as used to seeing the other angles.

Yeah. The reason why I asked that is due to exposing the liver as a southpaw in the shell defense. I mean, we can keep our elbows there to protect it, but when a southpaw rolls the shoulder, throws a jab, etc., that area is exposed much more than for the orthodox.

I think offense can absolutely be defense, if your opponent is overwhelmed by you, he probably isn't throwing much. That depends though on how effective you are too, because many fighters love an aggressive opponent because you can't explode offensively and at the same time, not be exposed when you do it. A great counter puncher who also has good defense will find those windows and then you have a real war, two guys trading, giving and taking.

Arisnoidys Despaigne, one of those "professional" amateur boxers, is phenomenal at counterpunching. I've seen him succeed against aggressive boxes where a whole slew of others have failed. Maybe it's due to being so experienced. People think he's old but end up being in for a rude awakening.

Yeah. I heard this old Russian boxing coach say the same thing as you not too long ago. That it's really not good to be overly aggressive. It can work against the guy. I've walked into plenty of punches that I didn't see by doing that. But on the other end, guys will lose focus and start making mistakes when the pressure is on them.

[LoadedWraps]

Yeah! He's Argentinian. I have family in Argentina. Aren't they making a movie on him? I don't know why I think that but I swear I heard something like that. Maybe it's a documentary?



Yeah. I agree. Very versatile stance. And having the ability to shoulder roll like that gives that extra layer of defense or, rather, a fast way to respond without getting out of position.



Yeah. Smart ring IQ. I suppose that's wisdom right there Conserving energy for the later rounds. I try to go slow (unless I'm forced not to), and then increases my work rate as the fight goes on. It's a psychological thing as well as physical. If the other guy is starting to get tired but sees that I'm gong just as hard (if not harder), it can do a mind job on the other guy. But as I've gotten older, with injuries, I've slowed down. I do have a great second wind. If I can get to my second wind, and I can control my activity to my liking, with good defense and movement, I can go on forever. I don't know why that is, to be honest. It's strange to me how that works. I mean, as long as I'm not really hurt.

I actually had to have an x-ray not too long ago, and the woman, the x-ray tech said that she had to redo the images because my lungs were so big (or long?). She had to move the machine backward to get my lungs into the whole image. She made big deal about this. I have no idea if that's related, but I thought it was due to so many years running seven to 10 miles almost every day and just working out for years.



Yeah. The reason why I asked that is due to exposing the liver as a southpaw in the shell defense. I mean, we can keep our elbows there to protect it, but when a southpaw rolls the shoulder, throws a jab, etc., that area is exposed much more than for the orthodox.



Arisnoidys Despaigne, one of those "professional" amateur boxers, is phenomenal at counterpunching. I've seen him succeed against aggressive boxes where a whole slew of others have failed. Maybe it's due to being so experienced. People think he's old but end up being in for a rude awakening.

Yeah. I heard this old Russian boxing coach say the same thing as you not too long ago. That it's really not good to be overly aggressive. It can work against the guy. I've walked into plenty of punches that I didn't see by doing that. But on the other end, guys will lose focus and start making mistakes when the pressure is on them.

Interesting bit about the lungs.

Yea, being overly aggressive can work against you but until it does, it's an onslaught.

If you aren't used to pressure, it will make you uncomfortable, and that goes for anything really in boxing. That's what sparring is for, when attempting to prepare for particular aspects of a fighter.I think a big part of why Wilder has been so successful is that he is so unorthodox, yes his fundamentals are awful but I know this: when I spar, the people that get the best of me, at least for one round, tend to be novice fighters, mainly because they know zero boxing and all of the sudden I might see something I never see, because they aren't coming behind a jab, or some other conventional approach I am expecting. Sure I can still react to most of what they do, and I end up out boxing them in the end, but for that first round or so, full of energy, I've gotten touched up by guys because they are wild and I have gotten clipped figuring out their approach. Wilder has that odd unpredictability plus a known power factor and his opponents freeze up and are more reluctant to take big risks. Fury is so complete he can counter everything Wilder can do rather easily, but in boxing a punch can change everything no matter who throws it.

I'd say you want at least a partial ability to surprise your opponent and stun them, but the fundamentals are still important because they are the baseline.

[Cypocryphy]

Interesting bit about the lungs.

Yea, being overly aggressive can work against you but until it does, it's an onslaught.

If you aren't used to pressure, it will make you uncomfortable, and that goes for anything really in boxing. That's what sparring is for, when attempting to prepare for particular aspects of a fighter.I think a big part of why Wilder has been so successful is that he is so unorthodox, yes his fundamentals are awful but I know this: when I spar, the people that get the best of me, at least for one round, tend to be novice fighters, mainly because they know zero boxing and all of the sudden I might see something I never see, because they aren't coming behind a jab, or some other conventional approach I am expecting. Sure I can still react to most of what they do, and I end up out boxing them in the end, but for that first round or so, full of energy, I've gotten touched up by guys because they are wild and I have gotten clipped figuring out their approach. Wilder has that odd unpredictability plus a known power factor and his opponents freeze up and are more reluctant to take big risks. Fury is so complete he can counter everything Wilder can do rather easily, but in boxing a punch can change everything no matter who throws it.

I'd say you want at least a partial ability to surprise your opponent and stun them, but the fundamentals are still important because they are the baseline.

Great post!! Very insightful!

The other thing about Wilder, that I was thinking, is that he's a superb athlete. There's a lot to be said about natural athleticism. I'm athletic but not the most athletic. I remember there were guys that I just couldn't understand how they did what they did. I've competed with guys (in various sports) that were on another level as far as athletic ability. Like this one guy that broke every single record there was. He was just faster, stronger, more dexterous than everyone else. One of those guys that could go into any sport and dominate, which he did (basketball, football, track and field, etc.)

Also some guys are just tough. I remember boxing this one guy that was 6" shorter than me (I'm 5' 10"), and he just took everything I gave him. He was from South America. I even smashed his nose across his face, and he smiled! I lost that fight, too. I think part of it was that he was in better shape than I, better conditioned, but he also had that "dog in him." He came from a crap neighborhood and had a ruthlessness, a meanness inside of him. I'd see him get into street fights and cold-**** dudes, usually when they weren't expecting it. (He kind of reminds me of Mayorga.)

Anyway, what I've noticed is that there are those intangibles, where you might fight someone who's not as skilled but is just a superior athlete and/or is more ruthless and/or extremely competitive, someone whom you have to knock unconscious or else they just won't stop.

In Wilder's case, out of those three qualities, I think what's helped him is that he's a natural athlete. I'm sure he could have been a wide receiver or a forward in the NBA, if he had wanted to go that route. Maybe that's a stretch? I don't know. But he's definitely very athletic, and I think it's his athleticism that enabled him to get as far as he has.

But yeah, lol, that's funny about fighting those guys that just come in wild and unpredictable. haha. I can see Wilder in my mind, right now, throwing those haymakers. Just like you said, Fury dismantled him.

Also, about Fury and Wilder 3, I want to see it. I already know the outcome, but I still want to see it. It's like a train wreck you know is happening but can't look away from. Not sure if we'll see it but I hope so. I just know that if Wilder hasn't fixed his problems since I started watching him, then he's never going to. If he could have done it, he would have already, IMO.

One other thing about Wilder. I think his mind or mentality is weak. I do believe he's delusional. I think he believes he is the "chosen one" or something like that. He believes that there's a whale in the Mississippi that saved him from drowning. I read a quote of him saying this. Sounds biblical. That tells me that he's delusional, very delusional (after reading several crazy statements he's made). And assuming he believes he's the "chosen one," losing the way he did to Fury has destroyed him mentally. It wasn't his boxing badly or Fury boxing exceptionally; it was that suit (or whatever excuse he's made up in his mind to overlook or not address the real problem), and this failure to accept and identify the problem means that he'll never fix what is wrong. Mark my words—Wilder will never win a boxing match again, especially if he fights Fury next.

[LoadedWraps]

Great post!! Very insightful!

The other thing about Wilder, that I was thinking, is that he's a superb athlete. There's a lot to be said about natural athleticism. I'm athletic but not the most athletic. I remember there were guys that I just couldn't understand how they did what they did. I've competed with guys (in various sports) that were on another level as far as athletic ability. Like this one guy that broke every single record there was. He was just faster, stronger, more dexterous than everyone else. One of those guys that could go into any sport and dominate, which he did (basketball, football, track and field, etc.)

Also some guys are just tough. I remember boxing this one guy that was 6" shorter than me (I'm 5' 10"), and he just took everything I gave him. He was from South America. I even smashed his nose across his face, and he smiled! I lost that fight, too. I think part of it was that he was in better shape than I, better conditioned, but he also had that "dog in him." He came from a crap neighborhood and had a ruthlessness, a meanness inside of him. I'd see him get into street fights and cold-**** dudes, usually when they weren't expecting it. (He kind of reminds me of Mayorga.)

Anyway, what I've noticed is that there are those intangibles, where you might fight someone who's not as skilled but is just a superior athlete and/or is more ruthless and/or extremely competitive, someone whom you have to knock unconscious or else they just won't stop.

In Wilder's case, out of those three qualities, I think what's helped him is that he's a natural athlete. I'm sure he could have been a wide receiver or a forward in the NBA, if he had wanted to go that route. Maybe that's a stretch? I don't know. But he's definitely very athletic, and I think it's his athleticism that enabled him to get as far as he has.

But yeah, lol, that's funny about fighting those guys that just come in wild and unpredictable. haha. I can see Wilder in my mind, right now, throwing those haymakers. Just like you said, Fury dismantled him.

Also, about Fury and Wilder 3, I want to see it. I already know the outcome, but I still want to see it. It's like a train wreck you know is happening but can't look away from. Not sure if we'll see it but I hope so. I just know that if Wilder hasn't fixed his problems since I started watching him, then he's never going to. If he could have done it, he would have already, IMO.

One other thing about Wilder. I think his mind or mentality is weak. I do believe he's delusional. I think he believes he is the "chosen one" or something like that. He believes that there's a whale in the Mississippi that saved him from drowning. I read a quote of him saying this. Sounds biblical. That tells me that he's delusional, very delusional (after reading several crazy statements he's made). And assuming he believes he's the "chosen one," losing the way he did to Fury has destroyed him mentally. It wasn't his boxing badly or Fury boxing exceptionally; it was that suit (or whatever excuse he's made up in his mind to overlook or not address the real problem), and this failure to accept and identify the problem means that he'll never fix what is wrong. Mark my words—Wilder will never win a boxing match again, especially if he fights Fury next.

Athleticism can be a huge factor, but it doesn't age well so If you rely heavily on it, you will have to learn how to fight economically if you want to extend your career. Guys like RJJ and Hamed relied on athleticism but excelled as fighters because of their ability to understand how to dominate fighters with their abilities. I'm a fan of flashy guys like that but I think its important to understand that the more you rely on athleticism the less you rely on fundamentals and it can cost you against an elite pure boxer or boxer puncher.

I think its smart to play to your strengths, even if you think your strengths are weaknesses. If you're tall for your division, then fight tall and learn how to maintain the fight at the range you want. Be comfortable at range. If you're small, fight small, fight low, embrace speed, stamina, and get comfortable with a high volume of punches. If you're fat (thicc) learn to be slick in one place like Toney, Fury, Ortiz, and/or get comfortable taking damage to land your own. Develope a good counter punch. If you're feather fisted, learn to stick and move, and box off the back foot, and have peak stamina and great footwork and head movement. If you're a mong with bricks for brains and feet and not a slick bone in your body but are willing to ****, then work on counter punching, combination punching, small lateral head movement, a smooth dip in and out to add at least some partial defense to a stiff offense and package.

The good news about boxing is that anything can happen! If Wilder lands a bomb we might be talking about Wilder/Fury IV. I think Fury stops him again and erases all doubt. I just want to see all these guys active again though, I don't care against who.

[LoadedWraps]

My list is still empty. Can anyone come up with entries?

[REDEEMER]

My list is still empty. Can anyone come up with entries?

AJs going to knockout Fury so when that happens where do you put AJ ? Seriously it’s hard to ignore you bc I’m saving all these threads and posts by you when it happens .

[BirdSong]

can could might, fantasy matchup's rarely produce a winner!

[Stuntman Mike]

Joshua will beat fury if they fight and he gets inside,wilder was a joke and walds always been scared of getting hit


All the greats have a chance against him

Foreman would blitz him he doesnt have alis speed as some people think,foremans pumchs would be far faster and more powerful than he could handle and set up well

Frazier is probably too small tbh

Ali would beat him in a game of tag easily

Tyson would obliterate him

Vitali would stop him too id imagine