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From DFs mailbag. Give your opinions afterward, I’ll start with mines in the comment section.
I know that you aren’t the biggest fan of him but what is your honest assessment of the skills, accomplishments, level of competition and where he stands in ATG status of Andre Ward.
DF:
Ward’s skills were elite level, as was his ring savvy and IQ. He was a complete and versatile boxer-technician, every bit deserving of his pound-for-pound status. His accomplishments were top notch. He won the Super Six World Boxing Classic tournament, which unified the WBA and WBC super middleweight titles and earned him The Ring championship as well as The Ring’s 2011 Fighter of the Year award. He won three major light heavyweight titles with his close nod over Sergey Kovalev and earned The Ring championship with his stoppage victory in their rematch. His level of competition was very good for his era (the second half of the 2000s and the last decade). I think Ward is a future first-ballot hall of famer (and, yes, he will get my vote – I might scribble “Dre can do no wrong” next to my checkmark if I’m feeling cheeky).
All Time Great? I’m afraid not, and I don’t write that because I don’t think he could have held his own with the greats of past eras – I think he could – I write that because he just didn’t accomplish enough or face enough fellow elites or future hall of famers to draw comparisons to the true ATGs. Greatness is harder to attain in boxing than in any other pro sport because of who old it is and because the best of the best of previous decades did so much, fought so much, and faced so many fellow greats.
Ward fought 32 times as a pro (and scored 16 KOs). It’s very, very hard to earn ATG status with less than 50 pro bouts. Sugar Ray Leonard (who had 40) did it because he had elite-level dance partners and he fought them when they were at or close to their best in a span (Benitez, Duran twice, Hearns) of less than three years. Those men were awesome at the time and they went on to forge hall of fame or ATG careers after losing to Leonard. Then you add the Hagler upset and the top-10 contenders he faced, and you got a modern fighter with a modern record who ranks with the best that ever did it. That’s RARE, Euan.
Sugar Ray Robinson
I’ll break it down to you like this: Sugar Ray Robinson is the ATG standard. He fought 200 times, scored 108 KOs. He was 40-0 by the end of 1942. The man turned pro in October 1940, so in 27 months, he fought more bouts than Ward did in about 12 years. In that span he beat fellow future hall of famers Jake LaMotta (an ATG), Fritzie Zivic (twice) and Sammy Angott (the lightweight champ at the time, twice). He also beat future welterweight champ Marty Servo (twice) and several top-10 contenders, including Izzy Jannazzo (twice).
If you line up the 10 best fighters Robinson faced, you’re talking about hall of famers (and I’m listing these guys in chronological order, I’m not ranking them): LaMotta (five bouts), Zivic, Angott, Kid Gavilan (twice), Carl “Bobo” Olson (four bouts), Randy Turpin (twice), Rocky Graziano, Joey Maxim, Gene Fullmer (four times) and Carmen Basilio (twice). When historians rank the top middleweights of all time, they include LaMotta. When they rank the top welterweights of all time, the include Gavilan and Basilio. You get my point. (I didn’t bother mentioning Henry Armstrong, who was past his prime when Ray fought him, or Joey Giardello who beat a past-prime Robinson in 1963.) THAT, my friend, is GREATNESS.
The Showtime Super Six tournament established Andre Ward’s pound-for-pound status.
Ward is EXCEPTIONAL for THIS era, but not all time. The quality of his top five opponents is very good: Kovalev (twice), Carl Froch, Chad Dawson, Mikkel Kessler and Arthur Abraham. (If you want to switch the order, that’s all good, I’m listing them, not necessarily ranking them.) Kovalev and Froch will likely make it into the hall of fame. But you can’t really do a top-10 best fighters list with Ward, whose first 18 bouts (as is the tradition for modern amateur standouts) were “gimmes.”
After Sakio Bika and Edison Miranda, who is there? Allan Green? Edison Rodriguez? OK. They were all solid. But who’s No. 10? Rubin “Hollywood” Williams? Henry “Sugar Poo” Buchanan? Maybe it was the Godfather of Gatekeepers, Darnell Boone. (I’m serious!)
Question from person
Same question for Canelo if he retired tomorrow. Same answer. Canelo’s skillset is elite. Unlike most modern fighters, he’s got a lot of experience (56 pro bouts) to back up his sharp mind and ring generalship. He’s a complete fighter, a boxer-counterpuncher, who is defensively slick but can also be an offensive force with his body attack and combinations. And he’s extremely accomplished, having won The Ring championship at junior middleweight and middleweight, along with eight major titles over three weight classes. Canelo was in The Ring’s 2018 Fight of the Year and he was the consensus 2019 Fighter of the Year.
Canelo-GGG 2 was the 2018 Fight of the Year.
If Alvarez retired tomorrow, he’d be a first-ballot hall of famer. He’s probably got a better case than Ward because he’s already faced four or five men who are in or likely will be inducted into the hall of fame: Floyd Mayweather Jr., Miguel Cotto, Shane Mosley, Gennadiy Golovkin (twice) and Kovalev. He’s got a solid top-10 opponents list, as the second five would be Erislandy Lara, Daniel Jacobs, Austin Trout, Amir Khan and Liam Smith (or maybe Smith can be replaced with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. or James Kirkland).
But, as it stands now, I don’t view the Mexican superstar as an ATG. Mayweather, Cotto and Mosley were past their primes (and Floyd beat him handily), although he had just reached the world-class level when he faced Mayweather, who ranked up a few significant victories after their 2013 showdown. The Golovkin fights were controversial (and like Ward’s showdowns with Kovalev the first bouts were more disputed than the return bouts), although I thought he was impressive vs. GGG; the split nod over Lara could have gone the other way, Khan was undersized, and Chavez Jr. was clearly drained and merely showed up for the payday. Still, Alvarez is only 30 (which is mind boggling, really). He’s got time to add to his legacy and he very well could end up with an ATG career
I know that you aren’t the biggest fan of him but what is your honest assessment of the skills, accomplishments, level of competition and where he stands in ATG status of Andre Ward.
DF:
Ward’s skills were elite level, as was his ring savvy and IQ. He was a complete and versatile boxer-technician, every bit deserving of his pound-for-pound status. His accomplishments were top notch. He won the Super Six World Boxing Classic tournament, which unified the WBA and WBC super middleweight titles and earned him The Ring championship as well as The Ring’s 2011 Fighter of the Year award. He won three major light heavyweight titles with his close nod over Sergey Kovalev and earned The Ring championship with his stoppage victory in their rematch. His level of competition was very good for his era (the second half of the 2000s and the last decade). I think Ward is a future first-ballot hall of famer (and, yes, he will get my vote – I might scribble “Dre can do no wrong” next to my checkmark if I’m feeling cheeky).
All Time Great? I’m afraid not, and I don’t write that because I don’t think he could have held his own with the greats of past eras – I think he could – I write that because he just didn’t accomplish enough or face enough fellow elites or future hall of famers to draw comparisons to the true ATGs. Greatness is harder to attain in boxing than in any other pro sport because of who old it is and because the best of the best of previous decades did so much, fought so much, and faced so many fellow greats.
Ward fought 32 times as a pro (and scored 16 KOs). It’s very, very hard to earn ATG status with less than 50 pro bouts. Sugar Ray Leonard (who had 40) did it because he had elite-level dance partners and he fought them when they were at or close to their best in a span (Benitez, Duran twice, Hearns) of less than three years. Those men were awesome at the time and they went on to forge hall of fame or ATG careers after losing to Leonard. Then you add the Hagler upset and the top-10 contenders he faced, and you got a modern fighter with a modern record who ranks with the best that ever did it. That’s RARE, Euan.
Sugar Ray Robinson
I’ll break it down to you like this: Sugar Ray Robinson is the ATG standard. He fought 200 times, scored 108 KOs. He was 40-0 by the end of 1942. The man turned pro in October 1940, so in 27 months, he fought more bouts than Ward did in about 12 years. In that span he beat fellow future hall of famers Jake LaMotta (an ATG), Fritzie Zivic (twice) and Sammy Angott (the lightweight champ at the time, twice). He also beat future welterweight champ Marty Servo (twice) and several top-10 contenders, including Izzy Jannazzo (twice).
If you line up the 10 best fighters Robinson faced, you’re talking about hall of famers (and I’m listing these guys in chronological order, I’m not ranking them): LaMotta (five bouts), Zivic, Angott, Kid Gavilan (twice), Carl “Bobo” Olson (four bouts), Randy Turpin (twice), Rocky Graziano, Joey Maxim, Gene Fullmer (four times) and Carmen Basilio (twice). When historians rank the top middleweights of all time, they include LaMotta. When they rank the top welterweights of all time, the include Gavilan and Basilio. You get my point. (I didn’t bother mentioning Henry Armstrong, who was past his prime when Ray fought him, or Joey Giardello who beat a past-prime Robinson in 1963.) THAT, my friend, is GREATNESS.
The Showtime Super Six tournament established Andre Ward’s pound-for-pound status.
Ward is EXCEPTIONAL for THIS era, but not all time. The quality of his top five opponents is very good: Kovalev (twice), Carl Froch, Chad Dawson, Mikkel Kessler and Arthur Abraham. (If you want to switch the order, that’s all good, I’m listing them, not necessarily ranking them.) Kovalev and Froch will likely make it into the hall of fame. But you can’t really do a top-10 best fighters list with Ward, whose first 18 bouts (as is the tradition for modern amateur standouts) were “gimmes.”
After Sakio Bika and Edison Miranda, who is there? Allan Green? Edison Rodriguez? OK. They were all solid. But who’s No. 10? Rubin “Hollywood” Williams? Henry “Sugar Poo” Buchanan? Maybe it was the Godfather of Gatekeepers, Darnell Boone. (I’m serious!)
Question from person
Same question for Canelo if he retired tomorrow. Same answer. Canelo’s skillset is elite. Unlike most modern fighters, he’s got a lot of experience (56 pro bouts) to back up his sharp mind and ring generalship. He’s a complete fighter, a boxer-counterpuncher, who is defensively slick but can also be an offensive force with his body attack and combinations. And he’s extremely accomplished, having won The Ring championship at junior middleweight and middleweight, along with eight major titles over three weight classes. Canelo was in The Ring’s 2018 Fight of the Year and he was the consensus 2019 Fighter of the Year.
Canelo-GGG 2 was the 2018 Fight of the Year.
If Alvarez retired tomorrow, he’d be a first-ballot hall of famer. He’s probably got a better case than Ward because he’s already faced four or five men who are in or likely will be inducted into the hall of fame: Floyd Mayweather Jr., Miguel Cotto, Shane Mosley, Gennadiy Golovkin (twice) and Kovalev. He’s got a solid top-10 opponents list, as the second five would be Erislandy Lara, Daniel Jacobs, Austin Trout, Amir Khan and Liam Smith (or maybe Smith can be replaced with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. or James Kirkland).
But, as it stands now, I don’t view the Mexican superstar as an ATG. Mayweather, Cotto and Mosley were past their primes (and Floyd beat him handily), although he had just reached the world-class level when he faced Mayweather, who ranked up a few significant victories after their 2013 showdown. The Golovkin fights were controversial (and like Ward’s showdowns with Kovalev the first bouts were more disputed than the return bouts), although I thought he was impressive vs. GGG; the split nod over Lara could have gone the other way, Khan was undersized, and Chavez Jr. was clearly drained and merely showed up for the payday. Still, Alvarez is only 30 (which is mind boggling, really). He’s got time to add to his legacy and he very well could end up with an ATG career
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