P4P: The Lessons of Boxing History

[Combat Talk Radio]

The year is 1986.

A 19-year-old Mike Tyson goes to war - nearly literally - with Mitch 'Blood' Green. Say what you will about how Green was completely outboxed, he stood in there for the full distance against a dangerous Tyson.

Green was a very good parallel - in terms of accomplishments - to Victor Postol, who many think is Terence Crawford's best win. Postol is also one of a very few that has taken Crawford the full distance, just like Green was one of a very few that took Tyson the full distance.




The parallels are clear here.

Forget what you know about Tyson's later career. Tyson is 21 fights in when he fights this guy and gets taken the distance. Up to this point the only notable name Tyson had fought was a seriously declining 'Quick' Tillis. 28 fights in, at 20 years old, people started calling him #1 P4P.

Forget what you know about Crawford's current career. Crawford started later than Tyson - 19-20 - and 21 fights in, had only one name: a seriously declining Breidis Prescott. 32 fights in, at 29 years old, people started calling him #1 P4P.

Let's break it down.


With Tyson, by his 35th fight, he had unified heavyweight and became lineal champion. Every belt he won was won by beating someone who held it.

With Crawford, by his 35th fight:

• His lightweight lineal was a vacant that he won (i.e. not taken from a holder)
• His light welter lineal was vacant (i.e. not taken from a holder)
• Despite officially campaigning for 3 years at welterweight, he has not contested for any other title but WBO, which many think was transitional to get off Manny before he left

In other words, every top accolade Crawford has had, was a "right place, right time" opportunity that his promoter helped him take advantage of. Which I don't begrudge. A title is a title.


Regardless, it begs the question.

Mike Tyson proved he was well worth a P4P status by his 35th fight by way of who he beat in that ring up to that point. His lineal status was legit - he beat it out of his opponent (Michael Spinks, regardless of whether you thought Spinks deserved it or not. He beat Larry Holmes twice, that's good enough for me).

When you compare Tyson's resume by his 35th fight, against Crawford's resume by his 35th fight...

I ask again. Why do you consider Terence Crawford P4P now?

[pretty ste]

Because the eye test never lies my brother bud gets alot of hate but soon real soon he's going to Clean up the welterweight division

[a.rihn]

Really nice breakdown, it looks like you put in the work. Interesting parallel.

[Mikeh333]

Because the eye test never lies my brother bud gets alot of hate but soon real soon he's going to Clean up the welterweight division

I’d argue the eye test lies constantly. You can look like an all-time great against lesser competition. I mean, I’d look like Sugar Ray Robinson if I fought only 11 year-olds. “What power he has!” They’d cry. “What speed!”

Not suggesting that Crawford’s competition has been the equivalent of 11 girls, but just trying to make the point that competition matters a great deal, and the eye test can’t always be trusted.

[Combat Talk Radio]

I’d argue the eye test lies constantly. You can look like an all-time great against lesser competition. I mean, I’d look like Sugar Ray Robinson if I fought only 11 year-olds. “What power he has!” They’d cry. “What speed!”

Not suggesting that Crawford’s competition has been the equivalent of 11 girls, but just trying to make the point that competition matters a great deal, and the eye test can’t always be trusted.

The 'eye test' doesn't mean anything if it's not applied against a threat.

[Mikeh333]

The 'eye test' doesn't mean anything if it's not applied against a threat.

I agree. This is why I can’t make Crawford my P4P #1 now. Much as I hate to admit it, as I am su****ious of Canelo, he is the best fighter in the world right now. Canelo has fought almost all the best fighters. Crawford hasn’t yet.

[Combat Talk Radio]

I agree. This is why I can’t make Crawford my P4P #1 now. Much as I hate to admit it, as I am su****ious of Canelo, he is the best fighter in the world right now. Canelo has fought almost all the best fighters. Crawford hasn’t yet.

I would agree, and have done, that Carnelo Alvarez is the real #1 P4P, when you look at the totality of his work.

Most on NSB would discredit him, but only after he's fought the guys. Used to be that Kovalev was considered a dangerous killer, until he got KO'd by Alvarez, and despite avenging it perfectly, people around here said that the Krusher was "old" and washed up. ONLY after Carnelo.

That's what bothers me. A fighter is a threat until after someone like Carnelo or Floyd fights them, then they're a bum. Why? It's not those guys' fault that they're levels above the competition. And even now Saul has only ever lost to The Best to Ever do it, not yet 30 and has nearly 60 fights. That's crazy.

Then you got a guy like Crawford barely scratching that number and he's almost 33 I believe - with not ONE signature win outside of Jeff Horn (because of the title).

[TheMyspaceDayz]

Tyson-Green was a 10 round fight, not 12.

Funny how opinionated everyone is but they overlooked that simple factoid.

[Combat Talk Radio]

Tyson-Green was a 10 round fight, not 12.

Funny how opinionated everyone is but they overlooked that simple factoid.

You are correct.

But it doesn't change the point.

Tyson was taken to the final bell by a guy that, as far as accomplishments, was equal to Postol when he took Crawford to the final bell.

But while Tyson went on to fight and beat threats the next year to become lineal and earn his P4P, Crawford after almost 10 years has, as JohnCastellanos properly described it, been strategically maneuvered to the accolade without earning it.

[Mikeh333]

I would agree, and have done, that Carnelo Alvarez is the real #1 P4P, when you look at the totality of his work...

....A fighter is a threat until after someone like Carnelo or Floyd fights them, then they're a bum. Why? It's not those guys' fault that they're levels above the competition. And even now Saul has only ever lost to The Best to Ever do it, not yet 30 and has nearly 60 fights. That's crazy.

I agreed, though I remember people saying that Kovalev was over the hill before the fight. But your point stands. Floyd beat Pacquiao, and immediately the cry was “Well Pacquiao was clearly past his prime!” Meanwhile for the next 4 years, Pacquiao beats every welterweight he fights, save for Jeff Horn, who received a gift decision against a Pacquiao who didn’t train well for the fight. Clearly Pacquiao is a top ten P4P fighter now, as he was in 2015. His style just matched up poorly against Mayweather, and Mayweather was just that good.