Holyfield-Usyk at cruiser...who wins and why

[Citizen Koba]

What does Usyk do better than Holyfield? Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Fastest Hand Speed = Holyfield.

Durability = Holyfield.

Endurance = Holyfield.

Combination punching ability = Holyfield.

Boxing ability = Holyfield.

Punching Power = Holyfield.

Movement = 'Holyfield' Usyk is solid in every area, but IF I was to highlight one small weakness? I think his movement is poor.

Note: The Evander Holyfield who fought Rid**** Bowe could still make cruiser-weight.

I've seen one or two other people talk about Usyk's poor movement and I can't for the life of me fathom it, unless your criticism would be that he uses too much movement or is inefficient with it? In terms of mobility and range control he's got some of the best feet I've seen in a big guy - in fact I'd point to that as one of his particular strengths... I know we all see different things though and I'm always been interested in other people's takes. I'm wondering if there's any fight in particular you're thinking of?

[Citizen Koba]

Toughest Cruiserweight fight for each of 'em and in both cases not the one where they put in their best performances, but by the same token maybe the two fights where we can have our best look at both their strengths and weaknesses.





Damn, man, though I'd forgotten how different young Evander looked before he put on the HW muscle.

[stuff jones]

Holyfield. He was too versatile and too tough.

[Dolor]

Difficult to say, that depends on who shows up.

Evan Fields beats Usyk, and clearly.

[Rip Chudd]

No way I'd pick against Holyfield in this one, he does everything better in my opinion, especially fighting on the inside

[PRINCEKOOL]

I've seen one or two other people talk about Usyk's poor movement and I can't for the life of me fathom it, unless your criticism would be that he uses too much movement or is inefficient with it? In terms of mobility and range control he's got some of the best feet I've seen in a big guy - in fact I'd point to that as one of his particular strengths... I know we all see different things though and I'm always been interested in other people's takes. I'm wondering if there's any fight in particular you're thinking of?

Usyk has educated feet, just like Canelo Alvarez but? His actual movement/athleticism is probably his only sub-par attribute 'It is as if he is boxing on a bouncy castle at times'.

Usyk does not have better movement than Evander Holyfield or David Haye.

Note: I was not impressed at all by Uysk's first heavyweight fight etc

[Citizen Koba]

Usyk has educated feet, just like Canelo Alvarez but? His actual movement/athleticism is probably his only sub-par attribute 'It is as if he is boxing on a bouncy castle at times'.

Usyk does not have better movement than Evander Holyfield or David Haye.

Note: I was not impressed at all by Uysk's first heavyweight fight etc

Too bouncy? Yeah I can see that - kinda what I meant by 'excessive' movement - I don't know if it's a fault but I can see how it might be, or could be seen to be.

And I wasn't particular blown away by his HW debut either.

[PRINCEKOOL]

Too bouncy? Yeah I can see that - kinda what I meant by 'excessive' movement - I don't know if it's a fault but I can see how it might be, or could be seen to be.

And I wasn't particular blown away by his pro debut either.

Evander Holyfeld used to bounce about also, Usyk movements just seem slow 'But He does have marginally better movement than Canelo Alvarez'.

Usyk is solid in every area, but he does not have any real great attributes 'I am not sure why he thinks he can light these heavyweights up? When David Haye moved into the heavyweight division 'It was apparent that his speed, athleticism and abnormal power where the attributes that would help him negate the size/strength advantages he may be competing against'.

What exactly is Usyk bringing into the division that is a threat to these guys? Is his boxing ability and ring IQ really that good? Is this the attribute that people THINK is so far superior to all these other heavyweights? I have continually demanded and asked people on this forum to explain to me 'What exactly does Usyk do which is great? I have asked for video footage and detailed posts 'But nobody has been able to produce any credible responses'.

I honestly think people believe that his RING IQ and boxing ability is so far superior that he will bamboozle these heavyweights.

[Citizen Koba]

Evander Holyfeld used to bounce about also, Usyk movements just seem slow 'But He does have marginally better movement than Canelo Alvarez'.

Usyk is solid in every area, but he does not have any real great attributes 'I am not sure why he thinks he can light these heavyweights up? When David Haye moved into the heavyweight division 'It was apparent that his speed, athleticism and abnormal power where the attributes that would help him negate the size/strength advantages he may be competing against'.

What exactly is Usyk bringing into the division that is a threat to these guys? Is his boxing ability and ring IQ really that good? Is this the attribute that people THINK is so far superior to all these other heavyweights? I have continually demanded and asked people on this forum to explain to me 'What exactly does Usyk do which is great? I have asked for video footage and detailed posts 'But nobody has been able to produce any credible responses'.

I honestly think people believe that his RING IQ and boxing ability is so far superior that he will bamboozle these heavyweights.

Well I'm not sure how he's gonna do at HW, and I certainly ain't annointing him based on his Cruiser run, but I can have a stab at explaining what I see at least. Superfast compared to other cruisers? Maybe not, but compared to many of the lumbering behemoths at HW Usyk is fast, furthermore raw speed ain't necessarily the point. Ward for instance isn't blindingly fast but his uncanny ring IQ means he's constantly anticipating his opponents, or leading them down the avenues he wants so he's able to react first, setting traps and feinting so it's his shots which land first -it makes people think he's real fast when in fact he's just real smart... that's the true skill of boxing.

Secondly is his activity... dude throws punches at the volume of a damn Middleweight or Welter, 50, 60, 70 even close to 80 (he threw 939 over 12 against Gassiev) punches a round over twelve rounds, and can stay light on his feet for that entire time... that's largely unheard of in todays heavyweight climate... the big guys simply can't match that kind of energy output and potentially it means that he can simply wear 'em down like a terrier, providing, of course, he can stay out of the way of the return fire. And even against the quicker smaller guys at Cruiser he was able to remain fairly defensively responsible, typically outlanding his opponents - even proven champions - at around a 2:1 ratio. He may not be a huge hitter, but any trained man of that size hits hard enough to make people notice, and if you watch him he's also very big on deception, not just feints but varying the speed and power so the opponent never knows exactly what's coming next and is forced to treat each punch as if it's meaningful, whilst Usyk can conserve enrgy by not loading up every time. Gassiev fight is an excellent example of this.

He's also good at using his own unusual mobility (for a man that size) to control range and put his opponents where he wants 'em in the ring, either keeping em on the end of his jab or keeping them turning so they can't set, which might be a big advantage against the slower moving big guys - they might be able to outpower him, but if they can't hit him with anything close to full power that extra mass just ain't much of advantage... time will tell if he's slick and mobile enough though, if he ain't he'll get crumpled I reckon.

Anyways. I ain't saying he goes on to do anything great at Heavy, and in fact I'm not even particularly expecting him to, but if he does those are the kinda assets I think will be what gets him there.. IQ, mobility, and a fantastic engine. Those 3 things - and the will to win - can take you a long, long way... let's see how far they can take Oleksandr.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the jab, Usyk uses it alot, and as with the best jabbers it's like his swiss army knife, uses the damn thing in a lot of different ways - a set up punch, a distractor, and just a punishing tool in it's own right. Much more educated, if maybe not necessarily as powerful, as the vast majority of Heavies of this era.

[PRINCEKOOL]

Well I'm not sure how he's gonna do at HW, and I certainly ain't annointing him based on his Cruiser run, but I can have a stab at explaining what I see at least. Superfast compared to other cruisers? Maybe not, but compared to many of the lumbering behemoths at HW Usyk is fast, furthermore raw speed ain't necessarily the point. Ward for instance isn't blindingly fast but his uncanny ring IQ means he's constantly anticipating his opponents, or leading them down the avenues he wants so he's able to react first, setting traps and feinting so it's his shots which land first -it makes people think he's real fast when in fact he's just real smart... that's the true skill of boxing.

Secondly is his activity... dude throws punches at the volume of a damn Middleweight or Welter, 50, 60, 70 even close to 80 (he threw 939 over 12 against Gassiev) punches a round over twelve rounds, and can stay light on his feet for that entire time... that's largely unheard of in todays heavyweight climate... the big guys simply can't match that kind of energy output and potentially it means that he can simply wear 'em down like a terrier, providing, of course, he can stay out of the way of the return fire. And even against the quicker smaller guys at Cruiser he was able to remain fairly defensively responsible, typically outlanding his opponents - even proven champions - at around a 2:1 ratio. He may not be a huge hitter, but any trained man of that size hits hard enough to make people notice, and if you watch him he's also very big on deception, not just feints but varying the speed and power so the opponent never knows exactly what's coming next and is forced to treat each punch as if it's meaningful, whilst Usyk can conserve enrgy by not loading up every time. Gassiev fight is an excellent example of this.

He's also good at using his own unusual mobility (for a man that size) to control range and put his opponents where he wants 'em in the ring, either keeping em on the end of his jab or keeping them turning so they can't set, which might be a big advantage against the slower moving big guys - they might be able to outpower him, but if they can't hit him with anything close to full power that extra mass just ain't much of advantage... time will tell if he's slick and mobile enough though, if he ain't he'll get crumpled I reckon.

Anyways. I ain't saying he goes on to do anything great at Heavy, and in fact I'm not even particularly expecting him to, but if he does those are the kinda assets I think will be what gets him there.. IQ, mobility, and a fantastic engine. Those 3 things - and the will to win - can take you a long, long way... let's see how far they can take Oleksandr.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the jab, Usyk uses it alot, and as with the best jabbers it's like his swiss army knife, uses the damn thing in a lot of different ways - a set up punch, a distractor, and just a punishing tool in it's own right. Much more educated, if maybe not necessarily as powerful, as the vast majority of Heavies of this era.

Thank You for your effort.

Everything you have explained in that post I am aware of 'But what I am stating is that? Usyk is not GREAT in any area, HE does not have any great attributes which JUMP out at you' If he did have great attributes you would not have to explain to me what they are 'Because I would know'.

You have just mentioned his work-rate 'But is it really great? Is Usyk's work-rate on the level of Joe Calzaghe or Ricky Hatton. Because those fighter had immense work rates, they could go through the gears if they needed to 'I don't think Usyk is operating at that same kind of level'.

You can go through all of his attributes like you just have 'And you can only really rate them as GOOD if you are honest' Which does make him into a solid fighter all around, but as I have mentioned in my previous posts 'To negate the potential size & strength disadvantage at heavyweight' YOU need to have great attributes.