Who was the best English fighter of all time?

[Citizen Koba]

Well **** I didn't know Joe was from London and so that line got all ****ed up. It was meant to reflect James Burke. Burke was meant to serve as the extreme difficult to understand case while Joe was meant to be the easy to understand case....because I thought his Welsh ass was actually born in Wales to Welsh parents.


Okay, so let's just focus on Joe then.

Joe's born in London, but he's Welsh because he was raised in Wales.

Bob Fitzsimmons is born in Cornwall and raised in New Zealand, but he's more English than Joe?

Bob's dad was Irish. Joe's Italian. Joe's born in an English city, Bob's born in a Cornish city. Why is it outlandish to question Bob's Englishness?

Correct me if I'm wrong here but a Cornish person is English in nationality alone, they are their own ethnic group, right?

So the only thing actually connecting Bob to England is him having been born in that nation. Not to English parents, not in an English cultural center, but he was born there and so he is English while Joe, also born in England, is not, AND, I'm a racist **** for questioning this logic and pointing out if you be too hard nose you can strip every modern English HW champ of their Englishness?

Is there an official cut off date? Three years old isn't old enough to be English, ten and twelve are definitely English though, and I'm the racist here...

Ha ha. This kinda **** is exactly why I reckon you gotta go with a person's right to self identify... there's simply no hard and fast rules. I listed Bob but he left the UK when he was about 10 or something I think so there's a good case for calling him a Kiwi or an Aussie though I can't find any info on how he described himself, Joe self identifies as a proud Welshman even if he was born in London and I can't see that anyone's got the right to claim different.

[BangEM]

That's sweet buttercup, thicken that skin. You go girl.

Fcck you, autistic sissy.

These two muppets have defaced their thread by arguing who is English and who’s not. Who’s really English when royal family is German? Who’s English when there are Romans still running around with huge pointed nose? Who’s English when the PM is really a crazed American born in New York? Who’s English when Eddie Hearn, a self-proclaimed “Englishman” is a *** with ***ish ancestry? Who’s English with *****s everywhere?

So, who’s truly English? This is a boxing forum not a political space.

[Jedi Vader]

Lennox Lewis

[LetOutTheCage]

Naseem, lol at people saying Calzaghe

[Marchegiano]

Ha ha. This kinda **** is exactly why I reckon you gotta go with a person's right to self identify... there's simply no hard and fast rules. I listed Bob but he left the UK when he was about 10 or something I think so there's a good case for calling him a Kiwi or an Aussie though I can't find any info on how he described himself, Joe self identifies as a proud Welshman even if he was born in London and I can't see that anyone's got the right to claim different.

Well, just to be clear, I do see Bob and Lennox as English and if an Englishman wanted to claim Joe I wouldn't argue with him.

It's more in the how as an American am I meant to guess this minefield kinda thing than a I think Bob's an Aussie kidna thing.


That said, to enforce the idea that Fitzs himself identified as an Aussie allow my to direct you to his colors.

The sash worn 'round the waist of the old timey fighters is not just to look old timey. They were called the colors, before corners were set as red and blue the fighters would tie a ribbon in their corner as battered men are not so good about finding the proper one without them

This ribbon, sash, whatever, would be the same as the one around their waist and they'd sell bulks of them to their fans pre fight so's the fans had their colors to wave about during the fight.

Bob's colors? Star spangled navy blue. Specifically so no one ever forgot where Bob came from.


Now, that's not to say he isn't English, just that, it's so similar to Joe how am I over here meant to understand the difference without anyone ever explaining how Joe became universally accepted as Welsh while Bob is English.


I could pull quotes but I think his colors are more, you know, permanent. A quote in a book might be hard to find, just about any book, and any book worth a damn, is going to cover the colors and their meaning though.

[Marchegiano]

Fcck you, autistic sissy.

These two muppets have defaced their thread by arguing who is English and who’s not. Who’s really English when royal family is German? Who’s English when there are Romans still running around with huge pointed nose? Who’s English when the PM is really a crazed American born in New York? Who’s English when Eddie Hearn, a self-proclaimed “Englishman” is a *** with ***ish ancestry? Who’s English with *****s everywhere?

So, who’s truly English? This is a boxing forum not a political space.

Then why the **** did you correct the other fella about Joe?

It's all well and fine when y'all are correcting Americans but when I use your own bull**** to point out that bull**** leads to you having no champions then you want to cry to me about being political?

Quit being such a god awful fruit. There's nothing to get upset about. It's a logical question. Why the **** does Joe have to be corrected in every goddamn UK, English, or British discussion? Why is it sooo important we recognize a Celt from an Anglo?

It's not important to us, it's important to you until I show you how ****ing dumb as **** that culture is then all of a sudden I'm the jerk am I? Ya ****ing whiney dumb ***** you.

[IceTrayDaGang]

canelo alvarez.

[Sane Man]

Okay. I'll explain.

The reason people always correct the nationality e.g "he's Welsh/Scottish/Irish" etc.

That is because smaller countries don't like England taking the "credit". Patriotic pride means a Scottish, Welsh or Irishman doesn't like having "their" fighter called English and England taking the credit for producing him.

Secondly. In my opinion, and it seems to be the general consensus, parentage trumps place of birth. So for example Calzaghe is absolutely not English because his father was Italian and his mother is Welsh. And he has lived in Wales almost all his life.

Parentage > Time Spent in Country > Place of Birth

[Marchegiano]

The Cornish have their own language, and many of them identify as Cornish, rather than English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_nationalism

"In 936 Athelstan fixed Cornwall's eastern boundary at the Tamar. The Italian scholar Polydore Vergil in his famous Anglica Historia, published in 1535, wrote that: 'the whole Countrie of Britain ...is divided into iiii partes; whereof the one is inhabited of Englishmen, the other of Scottes, the third of Wallshemen, and the fowerthe of Cornishe people, which all differ emonge them selves, either in tongue, ...in manners, or ells in lawes and ordinaunces."

"Writing in 1616, Arthur Hopton stated: 'England is ...divided into 3 great Provinces, or Countries ...every of them speaking a several and different language, as English, Welsh and Cornish.'"



While on holiday in Scotland, I personally witnessed a Cornish fisherman punch a Scotsman in the mouth for insisting that he - the Cornishman - was English. I don't know what nationality Bob Fitzsimmons ascribed to himself, but I reckon most people who had dealings with him would have been happy to go along with whatever he said ...

Politics were vastly different back then. Men like Bob were extremely proud of their citizenship and being a citizen in multiple nations was seen as a really big honor. Bob would claim citizenship, not ethnicity, but if you told him he wasn't a real Kiwi or some such he'd definitely take offense to that.


As far as Fitzs is concerned I can say for sure he saw himself as Irish, English, Kiwi and Aussie.

Irish because his father is Irish.

English because his mother is. I honestly don't think it mattered to Bob that he was born in England so much as his momma is English.

New Zealand because he was raised there and he is a citizen

Australia because he became a citizen and did most of his boxing there.

American, he became a citizen and became HW champion of the world and LHW champion or the world here. HW twice really.

If you told Bob he wasn't any of these thing I don't think he'd hurt you, because Bob's a proper nice guy really, but, he would maybe intimidate you. I know for sure he wouldn't like being told he isn't any of those.

Of them I think Irish, English, and Kiwi would be dearest to him.

[Marchegiano]

Okay. I'll explain.

The reason people always correct the nationality e.g "he's Welsh/Scottish/Irish" etc.

That is because smaller countries don't like England taking the "credit". Patriotic pride means a Scottish, Welsh or Irishman doesn't like having "their" fighter called English and England taking the credit for producing him.

Secondly. In my opinion, and it seems to be the general consensus, parentage trumps place of birth. So for example Calzaghe is absolutely not English because his father was Italian and his mother is Welsh. And he has lived in Wales almost all his life.

Parentage > Time Spent in Country > Place of Birth

Damn fine post. I wish I'd been alerted to it.

Lennox Lewis's parent are Jamaicans, both of them.

Joe's got no English parents either.

Bob's father is Irish, but his mother is English.

Bruno's Dominican

Wilde, Kaf tells us, is Welsh, I dunno w/o looking it up but I'm inclined to believe him.

Eubank is Jamaican.

Haye's also got an English mother. His Father is Jamaican though.

Benn's Barbadian

Fury is Irish

Froch, English until you hit his grands, I think. So that's pretty damn English.

Warrington, correct me if I'm wrong, is from England as are both his parents.

Duke is Jamaican.


So in terms of Englishness I think the pool is Warrington, Froch, Fitzsimmons, and Haye.