Who do you consider a champion?

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  • ShaneMosleySr
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    #1

    Who do you consider a champion?

    Now that Oleksander Usyk is at heavyweight, it’s Canelo Álvarez and Juan Francisco Estrada. Those are my two boxing champions.

    I would even understand if someone said they don’t recognize anyone as a world champion. I just can’t let the ABC titles dictate my life.

    The belt Álvarez doesn’t have at middleweight should have never been stripped away from Sergio Martinez in the first place. The most recent fight for that vacant title involved a fighter who’s ranked outside the top five by TBRB and someone else ranked outside the top 10. Álvarez is also widely recognized as the lineal champion.

    Estrada is a straight lineal argument, along with the fact that the other three ABC titles are held by guys outside the top 5 in that division.

    Everyone else is questionable, even the remaining lineal champions.

    At heavyweight, Tyson Fury retired so he lost the lineal status. It’s silly to claim he’s the lineal champion when he retired. Why doesn’t Lennox Lewis come back and defend his lineal championship then?

    (The other belts don’t matter. I can’t call Deontay Wilder champion when he beat Bermane Stiverne who beat Chris Arreola for the title while Klitschko was the king. That’s silly. Andy Ruiz’s titles can be traced back to all time great fights like Martin-Glasvkov and his own loss to Joseph Parker. They just don’t matter.)

    I would love to say the lineal champion at light heavyweight, Oleksander Gvozdyk is the guy there. But the lineal champion he beat was the most notorious ducker in recent boxing history. It was hard calling Stevenson the champ when Kovalev fought everyone else in the division and won every other title. Stevenson was just fighting bum after bum. So I can’t say Gvozdyk is the champ with all these young talented guys and Kovalev still hanging around, even though he has lineal status. I blame Stevenson.

    As for the lineal champ at 122, I just need to see Rigodeaux be a little bit more active and against top competition. Then I’ll feel more comfortable calling him the guy. But that win over Donaire looks better everyday!

    I’m also on the verge of calling Callum Smitm and Julian Williams the champ in their divisions but I can’t quite do it.

    Smith holds three titles. The Ring Magazine, the WBC Diamond and the WBA Super belt and he’s fought the toughest competition in the division compared to the others.

    While I usually crap on the WBC Diamond belt, it seems like the more prestigious belt compared to the normal WBC title in this weight division.

    Him holding the WBA super is telling as well because it means he really should hold at least one of the three other titles but doesn’t for a dumb reason. I would look up why but this post is getting long and I don’t feel like it.

    He’s missing the IBF, which is held by a super talented kid in Caleb Plant, but not someone I would call the champion yet, the WBO which Billy Joe Saunders won over a warm body, and the wbc which should be held by David Benavidez (insert caleb Plant description here) but isn’t because of a ******* situation so it’s being kept warm by Dirrell.

    So I would pick Smith as the guy but I just feel like he needs to beat someone else or a few someone elses to solidify it, if that makes sense.

    Williams has two of the four major belts. He won them by beating a guy who beat the current WBC champ and also a boatload of other contenders. It makes me feel like the WBC got it wrong by going with the younger Charlo brother, so I don’t really respect that title anyway. And I definitely don’t care about the WBO which Munguia won over Sadam Ali, who won it over an old Cotto who beat a victim for a vacant title.

    But I think Williams needs to do more than just beat one guy. If he wins a rematch with Hurd or beats a couple of other top 5 guys, then I have no problem with him being called champion. He probably will he considers the lineal champion if he wins a rematch with Hurd anyway.

    Everyone else needs to fight the other top guys in their weight classes! There’s 68 available major titles in boxing but I consider only two of them champs and really only understand arguments for a few more!

    Who are your boxing champions?
  • boliodogs
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    #2
    Originally posted by ShaneMosleySr
    Now that Oleksander Usyk is at heavyweight, it’s Canelo Álvarez and Juan Francisco Estrada. Those are my two boxing champions.

    I would even understand if someone said they don’t recognize anyone as a world champion. I just can’t let the ABC titles dictate my life.

    The belt Álvarez doesn’t have at middleweight should have never been stripped away from Sergio Martinez in the first place. The most recent fight for that vacant title involved a fighter who’s ranked outside the top five by TBRB and someone else ranked outside the top 10. Álvarez is also widely recognized as the lineal champion.

    Estrada is a straight lineal argument, along with the fact that the other three ABC titles are held by guys outside the top 5 in that division.

    Everyone else is questionable, even the remaining lineal champions.

    At heavyweight, Tyson Fury retired so he lost the lineal status. It’s silly to claim he’s the lineal champion when he retired. Why doesn’t Lennox Lewis come back and defend his lineal championship then?

    (The other belts don’t matter. I can’t call Deontay Wilder champion when he beat Bermane Stiverne who beat Chris Arreola for the title while Klitschko was the king. That’s silly. Andy Ruiz’s titles can be traced back to all time great fights like Martin-Glasvkov and his own loss to Joseph Parker. They just don’t matter.)

    I would love to say the lineal champion at light heavyweight, Oleksander Gvozdyk is the guy there. But the lineal champion he beat was the most notorious ducker in recent boxing history. It was hard calling Stevenson the champ when Kovalev fought everyone else in the division and won every other title. Stevenson was just fighting bum after bum. So I can’t say Gvozdyk is the champ with all these young talented guys and Kovalev still hanging around, even though he has lineal status. I blame Stevenson.

    As for the lineal champ at 122, I just need to see Rigodeaux be a little bit more active and against top competition. Then I’ll feel more comfortable calling him the guy. But that win over Donaire looks better everyday!

    I’m also on the verge of calling Callum Smitm and Julian Williams the champ in their divisions but I can’t quite do it.

    Smith holds three titles. The Ring Magazine, the WBC Diamond and the WBA Super belt and he’s fought the toughest competition in the division compared to the others.

    While I usually crap on the WBC Diamond belt, it seems like the more prestigious belt compared to the normal WBC title in this weight division.

    Him holding the WBA super is telling as well because it means he really should hold at least one of the three other titles but doesn’t for a dumb reason. I would look up why but this post is getting long and I don’t feel like it.

    He’s missing the IBF, which is held by a super talented kid in Caleb Plant, but not someone I would call the champion yet, the WBO which Billy Joe Saunders won over a warm body, and the wbc which should be held by David Benavidez (insert caleb Plant description here) but isn’t because of a ******* situation so it’s being kept warm by Dirrell.

    So I would pick Smith as the guy but I just feel like he needs to beat someone else or a few someone elses to solidify it, if that makes sense.

    Williams has two of the four major belts. He won them by beating a guy who beat the current WBC champ and also a boatload of other contenders. It makes me feel like the WBC got it wrong by going with the younger Charlo brother, so I don’t really respect that title anyway. And I definitely don’t care about the WBO which Munguia won over Sadam Ali, who won it over an old Cotto who beat a victim for a vacant title.

    But I think Williams needs to do more than just beat one guy. If he wins a rematch with Hurd or beats a couple of other top 5 guys, then I have no problem with him being called champion. He probably will he considers the lineal champion if he wins a rematch with Hurd anyway.

    Everyone else needs to fight the other top guys in their weight classes! There’s 68 available major titles in boxing but I consider only two of them champs and really only understand arguments for a few more!

    Who are your boxing champions?
    Lineal is just romamtic BS to me. I remember when Spinks was the lineal heavyweight champ and Tyson was clearly the best and the real champ. Tyson knocked him out in one minute. My champions are the guys I think are the best at the weight. Official champs and official decisions mean nothing to me. I decide who won the fight. there isn't always a standout in every weight class. Right now my champions are Bivol, Callum Smith, GGG, Spence, Prograis, Loma and Inoue. I think they are the best fighters in their weight class. I think Canelo is excellent but I hought GGG edged him out twice and will beat him again so GGG is my middleweight champ. In some weight classes I don't have a standout number 1 to be my champion. Anyway that is how I pick my champions since you asked. If I don't agree with an official decision I ignore it. If I don't consider a guy like Jermall or Andrade a real champion I ignore it. In my world my say is final. I don't care if others agree. Boxing is far to corrupt for me to go by official bogus decisions and official bogus champions.

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    • boliodogs
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      #3
      I recognize Estrada as the champion of his weight class.

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      • deathofaclown
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        #4
        Originally posted by boliodogs
        Lineal is just romamtic BS to me. I remember when Spinks was the lineal heavyweight champ and Tyson was clearly the best and the real champ. Tyson knocked him out in one minute. My champions are the guys I think are the best at the weight. .
        That’s probably the best way to view it.

        Although i think lineal status is generally based on beating the man, not always like your example, but i’d say generally it has more value than holding a belt. Boxing politics can make people belt holders, or some luck. Guys like Charles Martin can say they were a world champ because he got a vacant belt won via leg injury. At least most people that hold lineal status is generally off the back of beating a very good opponent, in most cases.

        Also, when people say whoever has most belts is no.1, which is nonsense. So that’s like saying Ryan Burnett was the best Bantamweight in the world when he had 2 belts, which he wasn’t.

        I think the best way is just prove you’re the best in the division by beating the best competition available. Whether that gives you lineal status or not, or if it give you 4 belts or no belts, it doesn’t really matter.
        Last edited by deathofaclown; 06-17-2019, 02:07 PM.

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        • Eff Pandas
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          #5
          Anyone I see as the clear #1 guy in a division I see as The Champion.

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          • Boksfan
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            #6
            Originally posted by ShaneMosleySr
            Now that Oleksander Usyk is at heavyweight, it’s Canelo Álvarez and Juan Francisco Estrada. Those are my two boxing champions.

            I would even understand if someone said they don’t recognize anyone as a world champion. I just can’t let the ABC titles dictate my life.

            The belt Álvarez doesn’t have at middleweight should have never been stripped away from Sergio Martinez in the first place. The most recent fight for that vacant title involved a fighter who’s ranked outside the top five by TBRB and someone else ranked outside the top 10. Álvarez is also widely recognized as the lineal champion.

            Estrada is a straight lineal argument, along with the fact that the other three ABC titles are held by guys outside the top 5 in that division.

            Everyone else is questionable, even the remaining lineal champions.

            At heavyweight, Tyson Fury retired so he lost the lineal status. It’s silly to claim he’s the lineal champion when he retired. Why doesn’t Lennox Lewis come back and defend his lineal championship then?

            (The other belts don’t matter. I can’t call Deontay Wilder champion when he beat Bermane Stiverne who beat Chris Arreola for the title while Klitschko was the king. That’s silly. Andy Ruiz’s titles can be traced back to all time great fights like Martin-Glasvkov and his own loss to Joseph Parker. They just don’t matter.)

            I would love to say the lineal champion at light heavyweight, Oleksander Gvozdyk is the guy there. But the lineal champion he beat was the most notorious ducker in recent boxing history. It was hard calling Stevenson the champ when Kovalev fought everyone else in the division and won every other title. Stevenson was just fighting bum after bum. So I can’t say Gvozdyk is the champ with all these young talented guys and Kovalev still hanging around, even though he has lineal status. I blame Stevenson.

            As for the lineal champ at 122, I just need to see Rigodeaux be a little bit more active and against top competition. Then I’ll feel more comfortable calling him the guy. But that win over Donaire looks better everyday!

            I’m also on the verge of calling Callum Smitm and Julian Williams the champ in their divisions but I can’t quite do it.

            Smith holds three titles. The Ring Magazine, the WBC Diamond and the WBA Super belt and he’s fought the toughest competition in the division compared to the others.

            While I usually crap on the WBC Diamond belt, it seems like the more prestigious belt compared to the normal WBC title in this weight division.

            Him holding the WBA super is telling as well because it means he really should hold at least one of the three other titles but doesn’t for a dumb reason. I would look up why but this post is getting long and I don’t feel like it.

            He’s missing the IBF, which is held by a super talented kid in Caleb Plant, but not someone I would call the champion yet, the WBO which Billy Joe Saunders won over a warm body, and the wbc which should be held by David Benavidez (insert caleb Plant description here) but isn’t because of a ******* situation so it’s being kept warm by Dirrell.

            So I would pick Smith as the guy but I just feel like he needs to beat someone else or a few someone elses to solidify it, if that makes sense.

            Williams has two of the four major belts. He won them by beating a guy who beat the current WBC champ and also a boatload of other contenders. It makes me feel like the WBC got it wrong by going with the younger Charlo brother, so I don’t really respect that title anyway. And I definitely don’t care about the WBO which Munguia won over Sadam Ali, who won it over an old Cotto who beat a victim for a vacant title.

            But I think Williams needs to do more than just beat one guy. If he wins a rematch with Hurd or beats a couple of other top 5 guys, then I have no problem with him being called champion. He probably will he considers the lineal champion if he wins a rematch with Hurd anyway.

            Everyone else needs to fight the other top guys in their weight classes! There’s 68 available major titles in boxing but I consider only two of them champs and really only understand arguments for a few more!

            Who are your boxing champions?
            Gtfo with this crap, Lineal belt doesn't exist.

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            • DARTH SILKWORMS
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              #7
              I keep it simple. There are four recognized titles. WBC, WBA, WBO, IBF. I wish there were less, but that's the way it is. I don't care about linear, ring, ibo, tbrb. If the WBA has a super champion and a world champion, I consider the super champion to be the WBA's champion. The WBO champion is usually just the Arum or Warren champion, but that's still better than the WBA's super champion silliness.

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              • DuckAdonis
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                #8
                If I had to pick one for every division

                HW: Fury
                CW: Usyk (if he still counts)
                LHW: Gvozdyk (Lineal)
                SMW: Callum Smith (WBSS winner)
                MW: Canelo
                SWW: J.Williams
                WW: Thurman (Former unified champ)
                SLW: will be winner of Taylor/Prograis
                LW: Lomachenko
                SFTW: Berchelt
                FTW: Santa Cruz
                SBW: Roman (Unified)
                BW: Inoue (will be winner of WBSS)
                SFLY: Estrada
                FLY: Tanaka
                LFLY: Kyoguchi (ring belt)
                Minimum: Menayothin

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                • TonyGe
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                  • Dec 2016
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                  #9
                  In no order
                  Golovkin
                  Spence
                  Ruiz
                  Lomo
                  Ruiz beat a guy that was supposed to be the equal of Wilder and Fury. So until proven otherwise he's the man.

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                  • JERMELL_CHARLO_
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                    #10
                    The king of boxing Canelo Alvarez, the vice president of the sweet science Andy Ruiz and Loma.

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