Srs question, why did Manny Pacquiao turn down random blood testing back then?

[tatot]

Don't worry, bro. I haven't resorted to any name calling and I don't plan to. I think we can keep it respectful.

What I'm trying to say is that the multi-vitamins/vitamin C doesn't have to specifically be to treat dehydration. They could just be to help with recovery, the same way they are given at any IV clinic. Look up any online website for IV clinics that give IV fluid for dehydration, fatigue, etc. They usually at least have the option of adding multi-vitamins and vitamin C. It's really not a big deal.

And you are wrong. The vitamins are not going to mask anything at a WADA laboratory. An IV masks by dilution. As per WADA's rules, not only does the DCO have to check the urine sample for dilution, but the independent WADA lab also checks the sample for dilution. The information is then entered into a database online and an automatic redflag is sent off to WADA and other ADO's in case a diluted sample is entered in. There is really no big deal about vitamins being used here.

It's up to his medical team to decide the appropriate cause of action. We don't know if his dehydration was caused by something else. My theory is that he was suffering from rhabdomyolysis, but we can't know for sure unless we have his medical records. All we know is that a TUE committee of anti-doping doctors received a full report on his condition, without having his name on it or any other way to identify who the TUE application was from, and it was approved.

Floyd and his team had clearly stated the reason he was given Saline with multivitamins and Vitamin C infusion after the weigh in cause he was dehydrated. Giving such in an IV form could dilute or mask other agents/substance which is a possibility and should have not been allowed. His TUE on the other hand was not approved until after the Pac fight thats what I heard (correct me if Im wrong).

He did not disclose any vitamins defiency or if he was suffering from something else. The fight would’ve been scrapped had he suffered rhabdo and he would’ve been hospitalized due to significant renal failure/kidney/s damage. Ironically, IV saline infusion would have been the normal treatment for this condition unless there are other electrolytes imbalance/complications such as hyperkalemia(elevated serum potassium) which could lead to arrhythmia and even cardiac arrest.

Some boxers may have intentionally taken medications and even supplements to may be hide steroids in the past like Chavez jr who got caught with furosemide
and marijuana. Luis Ortiz also failed a test from hydrochlorothiazide. Other boxers have been caught with PEDS or with elevated testosterone even some of the greats such as Holyfield,Vitali Klitschko,James Toney, Roy Jones,Antonio Tarver even Canelo failed a test the list goes on. Pac has never failed any tests and yet he has been getting defamed for doping/being a cheat without any reasonable evidence.

[travestyny]

Floyd and his team had clearly stated the reason he was given Saline with multivitamins and Vitamin C infusion after the weigh in cause he was dehydrated. Giving such in an IV form could dilute or mask other agents/substance which is a possibility and should have not been allowed. His TUE on the other hand was not approved until after the Pac fight thats what I heard (correct me if Im wrong).

He did not disclose any vitamins defiency or if he was suffering from something else. The fight would’ve been scrapped had he suffered rhabdo and he would’ve been hospitalized due to significant renal failure/kidney/s damage. Ironically, IV saline infusion would have been the normal treatment for this condition unless there are other electrolytes imbalance/complications such as hyperkalemia(elevated serum potassium) which could lead to arrhythmia and even cardiac arrest.

Some boxers may have intentionally taken medications and even supplements to may be hide steroids in the past like Chavez jr who got caught with furosemide
and marijuana. Luis Ortiz also failed a test from hydrochlorothiazide. Other boxers have been caught with PEDS or with elevated testosterone even some of the greats such as Holyfield,Vitali Klitschko,James Toney, Roy Jones,Antonio Tarver even Canelo failed a test the list goes on. Pac has never failed any tests and yet he has been getting defamed for doping/being a cheat without any reasonable evidence.

You're somewhat ignoring my last post. You don't have to have a deficiency in vitamins to have vitamins added to IV fluid. He's an athlete. I'm sure he takes allowable supplements and vitamins, and especially at the recommendation of a paramedic, and for someone taking part in a professional boxing match in less than a day.

He doesn't have to disclose any condition that he had, and USADA isn't allowed to discuss his medical record. I've been su****ious that it was Rhabdo because his symptoms seem to fit the bill. If it wasn't at an advanced stage or if it was even suspected, the right action would be to give an IV infusion so that he is well going into the fight. USADA's main concern is the health of the athlete foremost, so clearly if they can monitor the entire thing and make sure it's all above board, it wouldn't be a problem.

And you also ignored that the vitamins would not be masking anything. The IV masks by dilution, but again, the urine sample was checked by two different entity for dilution.


If an IV masks a urine test by dilution....but the sample wasn't diluted according to two completely separate entity...then this leads to a dead end.

[tatot]

Good information. You seem knowledgeable in this area and I appreciate the well thought out response in this particular post.

I have engaged in numerous discussions on this board surrounding the legitimacy of Floyd's IV use and I hope you can shed some light on a particular subject.


But first - earlier you stated that you would "only give a patient saline via IV after accute renal failure." Although Im not a medical professional, this statement seems to me more opinion orientated than based on sound medical practices.

Again, I'm not a medical professional and I am giving you the benefit of doubt that you have 10 years experience. I just want to ensure we have an honest discussion without any exaggerated statements moving forward.



Just to be clear, I believe if a urine sample was taken before and after the IV - then the IV was not used to mask a banned substance ("before" sample). Simple.
It is also extremely unlikely the contents of the IV was for nefarious purposes ("after" sample) given the fact there was a "before" sample.


The main debate at this time is the legitimacy of the METHOD used and whether or not it adheres to USADA and WADA CODE.


We clear?

IV saline infusion or even bolus would be essential to someone with acute renal failure from dehydration in a hospital setting. Not to brag but you could even ask a physician to confirm my claim lol!

Floyd’s alleged dehydration after the weigh in could have been addressed with pedialyte or even gatorade. If he was significantly dehydrated, plain IV saline infusion would be justified but not with multivitamins and vitamin C understand unless he wants some advantage or hide something. FYI, he did not look dry or dehydrated after the Pac weihh in ala Chavez jr making 160 lol.

You want to talk about legitimacy now? lol! Going back to the article, it was proven I was right about the IV infusion with saline,multivitamins and vitamin C. They may not be banned substance but the method it was given and the timing were shady to me.

[Dosumpthin]

so that means floyd was trying to move the goal post and was in no hurry to make the fight then. thanks for posting that up!

- floyd asked for random blood test
- pac agreed but asked for a cut off

that should have been it right there!! give and take!

-Floyd ask for random BLOOD test
-Pac DECLINED by asking for specific days.


Pac only agreed to random URINE test.



****** as hell

[Dosumpthin]

IV saline infusion or even bolus would be essential to someone with acute renal failure from dehydration in a hospital setting. Not to brag but you could even ask a physician to confirm my claim lol!

Floyd’s alleged dehydration after the weigh in could have been addressed with pedialyte or even gatorade. If he was significantly dehydrated, plain IV saline infusion would be justified but not with multivitamins and vitamin C understand unless he wants some advantage or hide something. FYI, he did not look dry or dehydrated after the Pac weihh in ala Chavez jr making 160 lol.

You want to talk about legitimacy now? lol! Going back to the article, it was proven I was right about the IV infusion with saline,multivitamins and vitamin C. They may not be banned substance but the method it was given and the timing were shady to me.

You initially said you only would give an IV saline in the event of acute renal failure.

Did I read that correctly? Let me check..... be right back.

[Dosumpthin]

I would not even give IV saline in a hospital setting unless someone is severely dehydrated with significant acute renal failure.

There it is.

Not questioning your expertise. But I do see some inconsistencies in your post my guy.


Are saline I Vs only given during acute kidney failure or not?

[tatot]

You're somewhat ignoring my last post. You don't have to have a deficiency in vitamins to have vitamins added to IV fluid. He's an athlete. I'm sure he takes allowable supplements and vitamins, and especially at the recommendation of a paramedic, and for someone taking part in a professional boxing match in less than a day.

He doesn't have to disclose any condition that he had, and USADA isn't allowed to discuss his medical record. I've been su****ious that it was Rhabdo because his symptoms seem to fit the bill. If it wasn't at an advanced stage or if it was even suspected, the right action would be to give an IV infusion so that he is well going into the fight. USADA's main concern is the health of the athlete foremost, so clearly if they can monitor the entire thing and make sure it's all above board, it wouldn't be a problem.

And you also ignored that the vitamins would not be masking anything. The IV masks by dilution, but again, the urine sample was checked by two different entity for dilution.


If an IV masks a urine test by dilution....but the sample wasn't diluted according to two completely separate entity...then this leads to a dead end.

I did not ignore your post, I have cleary said Floyd’s excuse was dehydration. Multivitamins and Vitamins are not given to someone who is dehydrated you got me? I just debunked your theory about rhabdo lol! I dont have to keep repeating myself. I challenge you and the other guy to show my posts about rhabdo and dehydration to a physician to prove Im no BS. USADA’s main concern is about athlete’s health now? lol! Thats not what their paid to do lol, thats the athletics commission job to oversee athletes understand?lol!You and the other guy are ganging up on me eh?lol! Read my whole posts and find out that I did not ignore anything. You could also read my posts and answers to the other guy.

I have clearly stated my case and back up my claims with facts to the best of my knowledge and ability. Come back to me when you have reasonable things to say. Peace out✌🏼

[tatot]

There it is.

Not questioning your expertise. But I do see some inconsistencies in your post my guy.


Are saline I Vs only given during acute kidney failure or not?

Inconsistensies?Lol, I have clearly stated my case dude. I would only give IV saline infusion and/or bolus to someone with sognificant acute renal failure due to severe dehydration in a hospital setting. I dont have to explain myself anymore, you can read my precious posts. Are you resorting to fault finding now? lol

[FrankieClutch]

To the best of my knowledge, he accepted but wanted a cut off. I believe Manny wanted a 21 day cut off and Floyd wanted a 7 day cut off. Which just goes to show the egos involved because they could've easily met in the middle

[tatot]

There it is.

Not questioning your expertise. But I do see some inconsistencies in your post my guy.


Are saline I Vs only given during acute kidney failure or not?

We were clearly talking about Floyd’s alleged dehydration and my point was, I would not even give an IV saline infusion in a hospital unless with significant acute renal failure due to massive fluid loss from dehydration. Read my whole posts and maybe all of my answers to you lol. I dont need to keep repeating myself or justify what I have posted. Its open for everyone to see.Peace out