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A reasonable discussion on the Middleweight division

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  • A reasonable discussion on the Middleweight division

    I understand the need for having world-class fights in all divisions. However, coming to this forum has truly opened my eyes to the limitless stupidity of human beings. One of the biggest discussion in the past few years have been about the legitimacy of Middleweight champion, GGG.

    Through the years, I have only seen the bar moved farther away after each fight. 2017 was one of the biggest years of GGG's boxing career and it seems the the brigade of armchair warriors have also increased meanwhile. Fighting and keeping his belts against the top two contenders in MW in the same year is apparently not enough for a boxer anymore. Then the question arises, at what point can a boxer truly escape scrutiny?

    The conclusion I've come to is never. The expectations are always high, even if it has no basis or connection to reality. Every top guy of the division, not just GGG alone is apparently supposed to fight 1 world class opponent after another. This delusion pretty much instantly stops itself when one realizes how rare world class fighters are. In every division, there is hardly 1-2 A class fighters. Who are these world class opponents that a champion is supposed to defend against then? Well for one, the idea of moving up the weights has been thrown around.

    From a purely historical perspective, this is plain stupid. Under no circumstances should a boxer move up unless he starts very low to begin with. Why? If a boxer moves up, he is expected to keep leaping weights until he is defeated and for what? Once defeated, they turn into the very same fighters who are referred to as taxi drivers and bums. This has been seen over and over again, how the armchair 'lads' with no experience in pretty much any combat sports ****s on fighters who could break their jaws with little to no effort.

    As it stands, a top professional boxer can never win with the NSB crowd, which really sheds light on how much boxing discussion actually takes place here. The ****posters keep throwing in names of world beaters such as Charlos, Lara etc etc. but only until they take their first loss. Lara has seemingly hit the abyss after his last loss and looks like the fangirls have jumped to a new ship. One that of Sergiy Derevyanchenko, just like they did with the previous IBF mandatory in Trueno Johnson and Dominic Wade.

    TL;DR - GGG can only become top p4p if he wins against Canelo, BJS and Derevyanchenko on the same night, 1v3, while having his arms tied. Canelo et al. can keep fighting the Spike o Sullivans, Trueno Johnson and whatever leftovers come along though.

  • #2
    Some good points but you stretch things a little!
    I agree that the champs can't, and shouldn't, have to fight No1 contenders each and every fight. The great champions of earlier decades didn't do that yet don't get criticised.
    This problem arises from a combination of business factors including: the number of "recognised" sanctioning bodies; the number of times the champs fight each year; and the money the fighters want/need/get for fighting; the importance placed upon being "undefeated" etc.
    From a fans perspective, there's no easy solution to this imo!

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    • #3
      Lol, when you see a thread in NSB titled "reasonable discussion", you know it's going to be anything but.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tokon View Post
        Some good points but you stretch things a little!
        I agree that the champs can't, and shouldn't, have to fight No1 contenders each and every fight. The great champions of earlier decades didn't do that yet don't get criticised.
        This problem arises from a combination of business factors including: the number of "recognised" sanctioning bodies; the number of times the champs fight each year; and the money the fighters want/need/get for fighting; the importance placed upon being "undefeated" etc.
        From a fans perspective, there's no easy solution to this imo!
        Here is the thing. Once boxers retire, their career is seen through rose coloured glasses. Only relevant fighters get their every move scrutinized. How many threads on May and Pac do you see here anymore? Its just that once boxers retire, the constant whining from the same 'lads' gets tiring and eventually loses support.

        A recent quote by Arsene Wenger rings true. He said once everyone knew he was going to retire/resign, he got overwhelmed with love, when just a day before, there was a big mob ready to criticize his every single move. Once you are not a threat anymore, there is little point in hating you. Most retired sportsmen with decent career end up getting praise in the long run.

        I can assure you that the same thing with happen with GGG, Canelo, while the next generation of MW boxers will be called bums as their resume would be weak compared to the said boxers. The cycle of life continues...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by animelive
          You may have lost your way. There are plenty of other threads to post one liners to troll in. This kind of low effort posting is probably why this forum has gone to the ****ter and I must admit, at times I have also been guilty of this too.
          Don't bytch out. If you gonna troll, commit to it and don't be a sandy vagina. I was trying to laugh with you but you're too sensitive.

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          • #6
            GGG has only ever faced 3 top level guys

            Kell Brook- Wasnt even the best WW, and GGG got hit a lot in that fight
            Daniel Jacobs- A very close fight where GGG did not look impressive
            Canelo- Missed most of his punches and got a draw

            For a long career spanning nearly 40 fights its disgraceful, hes not a great fighter. Hes a champ who beat C class fighters his whole career, we dont even know if he can beat Lara, Hurd, Andrade or the Charlo Brothers. Those are 5 guys who apart from Canelo and Jacobs are better than the rest of GGGs opponents thus far.
            Lara isnt even the best of the bunch and he arguably won against Canelo

            If GGG actually took risks and fought and beat all the above names Id consider him a great fighter, but as of now not even close.
            Last edited by SugarRayCurtain; 05-04-2018, 06:27 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by animelive
              You may have lost your way. There are plenty of other threads to post one liners to troll in. This kind of low effort posting is probably why this forum has gone to the ****ter and I must admit, at times I have also been guilty of this too.
              Way to rip on a guy who is supporting your belief that you won't get a reasonable discussion here........

              Comment


              • #8
                No time to read this estrogen fueled short story, but will assume that it is about the middleweight division not being **** during most of GGG's career.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by animelive View Post
                  I understand the need for having world-class fights in all divisions. However, coming to this forum has truly opened my eyes to the limitless stupidity of human beings. One of the biggest discussion in the past few years have been about the legitimacy of Middleweight champion, GGG.
                  First off GGG being legit is a stupid discussion. Of course he's legit. If you or anyone else don't think he's legit #1 in the division you are some other dudes fanboy, a GGG hater or just got dropped on your head as a baby.

                  Then the question arises, at what point can a boxer truly escape scrutiny?

                  The conclusion I've come to is never.
                  You had to figure this one out? NO ONE escapes scrutiny. Everything is ALWAYS on the table & UP FOR GRABS in a competitive world like professional boxing. With how the multiple titles have destroyed the term champion I believe you can lose the "real title/#1 spot" without losing a fight today thats how much scrutiny is on guys.

                  For me I considered GGG the champion at 160 after Sergio made it apparent he didn't wanna fight GGG & as GGG improved the guys he fought. And I stripped Adonis Stevenson of his #1 standing with me once he kept fighting bs guy after bs guy while Kovalev was fighting superior opposition.

                  Since there is 4 or more "champions" & since the champions don't fight like they used to in previous multiple title generations I think this is all fair play that you can keep winning yet lose your "The Champion" standing.

                  The expectations are always high, even if it has no basis or connection to reality. Every top guy of the division, not just GGG alone is apparently supposed to fight 1 world class opponent after another. This delusion pretty much instantly stops itself when one realizes how rare world class fighters are. In every division, there is hardly 1-2 A class fighters. Who are these world class opponents that a champion is supposed to defend against then? Well for one, the idea of moving up the weights has been thrown around.
                  This is complete & utter bs. The number 1 guy in most divisions have lil extra pressure on them. Now there are a handful of P4P tip top guys, like GGG, that have higher pressure on them to fight tip top (I say top 5 guys in a division minus mandatory situations obviously) more often since they are considered among the best guys in all of boxing. This happens all the time & was the same in the Floyd & Manny years. Manny took sh^t for David Diaz type fights. And as a big Floyd fan from childhood til now one of my biggest disappointments in Floyd's career was him ending it (the 2nd or 3rd time lol) by giving Andre f#cking Berto a title shot. Berto doesn't suck, but he wasn't a top 5 guy in the division, deserving of a title shot & stands out to me as Floyd's worst opponent in a title fight for around a decade when he fought so many name + quality guys.

                  As it stands, a top professional boxer can never win with the NSB crowd, which really sheds light on how much boxing discussion actually takes place here.
                  If you listen to the idiots you aren't wrong. There are plenty of people who speak on boxing intelligently here. If you are engaging with the lowest dipsh^ts here who calls the #8 guy in the world a bum casually then yea that type of fan isn't likely to ever give many guys the respect they deserve.

                  I try to give EVERYONE who boxes a level of respect, but then again that doesn't mean I can't or won't be critical of them. This is a competitive world. If you are slacking its very possible someone else is doing more or will be doing more. #1 is a flimsy spot to be & maybe more so now with the stuff I said earlier talking about you don't even need to necessarily lose to lose the #1 spot these days since the guys who should be fighting fight so seldom like they did in past eras.

                  The ****posters keep throwing in names of world beaters such as Charlos, Lara etc etc. but only until they take their first loss. Lara has seemingly hit the abyss after his last loss and looks like the fangirls have jumped to a new ship. One that of Sergiy Derevyanchenko, just like they did with the previous IBF mandatory in Trueno Johnson and Dominic Wade.
                  Okay now you just went to stupidtown. Who the f#ck was on the Wade War Wagon??????? Granted there were & are guys riding with the other guys mentioned, but I don't see how giving credit to guys on the rise takes away from a guy more proven like GGG.

                  Theres levels to this sh^t. And no one is saying Charlo or Derevyanchenko is on the level of GGG yet or that they can definitely be one day. Both have massive questions on themselves still & got things to prove vs GGG or other top guys. But the thing is they are in that top 5 mix of guys right now so they should be given that opportunity to succeed or fail in proving themselves vs GGG or Canelo or even other top guys.

                  TL;DR - GGG can only become top p4p if he wins against Canelo, BJS and Derevyanchenko on the same night, 1v3, while having his arms tied. Canelo et al. can keep fighting the Spike o Sullivans, Trueno Johnson and whatever leftovers come along though.
                  GGG is a P4P discussed guy right now lmfao. Worse TLDR everrrrrr. Sh^t man I think most cats got GGG in the top 3 P4P.

                  All most of us wanna see is good fights. I don't ride or die with many mfers. I do enjoy & respect many mfers. But the reality is boxing is one of the only sports where you can compete against lower level guys in big events & I personally hate that & think it makes boxing look like & feel like a joke sport. This Cinco de Mayo date is a BIG FIGHT DATE. And to me GGG is pissing on the big fight status of this date by fighting an inactive, smaller guy, on late notice, who's never fought in this weight division. GGG needed to fight his mandatory, Derevyanchenko, who was ready to come in late just like Vanes or to push back this date for a month or several weeks to have more time to properly train for a more suitable replacement for this big fight date. Thats all I or most who side more with me than you are thinking. We don't need to see GGG with one hand tied behind his back or that other bs you brought up we just want to see him fight deserving contenders in his own weight division & not bs opponents.

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                  • #10
                    Great post Eff thanks for that.

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