Comments Thread For: Agitated Arum: HBO, Showtime Don't Own the Boxing Business!

[The Gambler1981]

Well my assumption would be with all of this is if Arum feels he needs to make x for a deal to be viable he either gets x & makes the deal or he doesn't & doesn't make the deal. Arum is a fairly simple guy with a thing like that I believe. He's either gonna get what he deems himself worthy of & he's in or he won't get it & he's out. I can't imagine Bob would take a deal that would lose him money somehow.



I don't think Arum is holding the camera or anything. Idk why Arum would need to worry about bandwidth. Either Netflix or whoever would film the event or they'd be money allotted for hiring someone to film the event. It would seem they are doing that now on their website without any strategic partner to help get out their streaming content so it can't be that expensive or difficult.



Gotta start somewhere with this streaming thing. Everyone is gonna be going too it sooner or later. Its just a better technology that's more exposable to people beyond those who own TV's.

And yea I don't think Arum building some bigger streaming network is in the cards. He needs to connect himself to one of the players in this market if he's making a move. Its a legit risk for Arum to start TR Streaming or something like that. He's just a middleman in any strategic partner ship. Streaming network pays Arum, Arum finds fighters & pay them. Keeps the remaining amount for himself.



Again I just can't for the life of me fathom how there is some "weathering of a storm" here. Hulu throws Arum x dollars for monthly fights lets say. Arum throws together a monthly card. He's doing the exact same thing he's doing with PPV, HBO, TruTV & UniMas or ESPN back in the day or anything else he could do with someone on "regular TV". Its just a different style of viewing boxing that has the ability to reach people via different devices & in more places primarily than something that's changing what Arum specifically does.

Arum doesn't have to learn about streaming himself, although it'd probably only help him if he did to come up with ways to further enhance his product like one can do with streaming, but its by no means something that would be necessarily required of him. But mainly I just think you aren't seeing how similar a streaming deal would be to a regular TV deal that Arum has done numerous times over the years.

I don't get how you don't see the risks at all. If Arum wants to build a lasting relationship and have a true partner he is going to have to do some things he doesn't like. If he wants a stopgap solution then on to the next thing which has got him to this point. So if he plays this the least risky normal way his risk is that he needs to do it again in two years tops and will eventually run out of avenues.

Then there is what if there is no way he can get X and can only accept less to get the opportunity at something bigger later. To get off a sinking ship (for Top Rank at the very least) any life boat looks good at the moment even if there are no emergency rations. What if they will only do a decent deal if they get some of his better fighters to appear but not pay what Arum is used to getting. If they just want his prospects and cheap guys and will pay accordingly that is basically a minor deal, something that Arum needs to do build those guys up but it is not going to be a great lifeline in the near future. How many eyeballs are Shakur Stevenson going to bring in, is that going to make people shell out for Amazon Prime which last I checked is not cheap, is that sort of low level attraction going to make Amazon want more boxing?

His one current saving grace is he can basically give away the Manny fight but that is in Austrailia, not a third world country by any means but I do question how streaming from there would have major challenges. Could be a very poor first impression, it could work out fine but there is certainly risk there.

If Arum is paying to farm it out that eats into profits too because he needs the production abilities he already has plus some extra things.

Arum is basically in a position he has to make something occur so either he takes some risk on or he is likely to burn a bridge when he can't afford to be doing that. If it is just prospects and low end fights thing to me that isn't major at all, something he certainly needs to do like I said to get his prospects some shine but that is only going to help so much for the foreseeable future.

[boxinggod101]

Arum has gone mad... If he thinks he can put his on TR PPV hes being delusional.

[NYG]

I think the bigger problem is that boxing isnt really cared about in the US anymore. MMA took over in the US and the boxing part of the world is the UK. A lot changed over 5 years and nobody is paying money for PPV anymore unless its a really great one. The prices are too much and you pay for the main event which isnt that good to begin with. Kids are being born and are growing up watching other sports. MMA is more easier to follow and easier to watch so of course its more viewed.

for a $60 PPV, try putting on a lot of good fights and not just one. Fill the card up and knock it out of the park. Canelo-GGG is coming up. Thats already a major fight. Add 3 more really good fights to that and it will sell a lot. Even the garbage Conor-Floyd. Imagine Joshua on the undercard? Promoters arent putting good fights on these undercards anymore

[The Gambler1981]

I never really understood the business part of boxing with the networks and **** so can somebody fill me in? Arum has been in the business for how long? And he's *****ing?

Networks pay for fights, back in the day HBO used to have a huge budget something like 4 or 5 times greater than their current budget. Showtimes has increased their budget but that does not make up the total difference in what is being spent on boxing cards. PBC was/is trying to create a new way and grow the TV pie again for boxing because the premium model is not what it once was so something needed to be done.

Going back further boxing was on regular TV but the pay channels started to pay more, so everyone took their fighters there because that is where the best money was. Which in turn shrunk the audience because not everyone can afford HBO and Showtime. In recent years as HBO's budget has shrank and PPV became more prominent the audience shrunk even further even as money was made.

Arum being around since the 70's as a major player was a part of all this. Over that time Arum had relationships with ESPN, Versus, TruTV among others to show his fights but all eventually grew tired of him as he put on worse and worse fights for the same money. Arum had a relationship with Showtime but Showtime felt they had a longer term deal for Manny with the Mosley fight being the first fight, but right after that fight Arum jumped back to HBO and Arum has not been back on Showtime since.


There is way more to it than that but that is kind of a basic look at it.

[NYG]

Networks pay for fights, back in the day HBO used to have a huge budget something like 4 or 5 times greater than their current budget. Showtimes has increased their budget but that does not make up the total difference in what is being spent on boxing cards. PBC was/is trying to create a new way and grow the TV pie again for boxing because the premium model is not what it once was so something needed to be done.

Going back further boxing was on regular TV but the pay channels started to pay more, so everyone took their fighters there because that is where the best money was. Which in turn shrunk the audience because not everyone can afford HBO and Showtime. In recent years as HBO's budget has shrank and PPV became more prominent the audience shrunk even further even as money was made.

Arum being around since the 70's as a major player was a part of all this. Over that time Arum had relationships with ESPN, Versus, TruTV among others to show his fights but all eventually grew tired of him as he put on worse and worse fights for the same money. Arum had a relationship with Showtime but Showtime felt they had a longer term deal for Manny with the Mosley fight being the first fight, but right after that fight Arum jumped back to HBO and Arum has not been back on Showtime since.


There is way more to it than that but that is kind of a basic look at it.

Thanks. Arum seems to be at fault for a few things

[The Gambler1981]

Thanks. Arum seems to be at fault for a few things

He is a hard guy to deal with, part of why he is successful though. The best way to look at Arum is always how something benefits him if something is his way more than 51% he will consider it but if he can get it 51% his way he will want 60% his way. If he can't get his way he runs straight to media that is sympathetic to him to scream and moan.

Not that everything is his fault because often he was just taking advantage of situations available. Still he was a major player through boxing declining so some stuff is certainly at his feet.

[Eff Pandas]

I don't get how you don't see the risks at all. If Arum wants to build a lasting relationship and have a true partner he is going to have to do some things he doesn't like. If he wants a stopgap solution then on to the next thing which has got him to this point. So if he plays this the least risky normal way his risk is that he needs to do it again in two years tops and will eventually run out of avenues.

Get into some specifics or examples here then. I don't really grasp how this is any different than any current exchange of money for content that Arum or any promoter has had with any "regular TV" network.

And I don't see beyond the normal deal with any content provider what risks streaming TV brings that broadcast TV doesn't. Its essentially the same thing.

Then there is what if there is no way he can get X and can only accept less to get the opportunity at something bigger later. To get off a sinking ship (for Top Rank at the very least) any life boat looks good at the moment even if there are no emergency rations. What if they will only do a decent deal if they get some of his better fighters to appear but not pay what Arum is used to getting.

But I don't see why this is any different then a TruTV or UniMas deal. Of course Arum getting what he wants & a interesting streaming party getting what they want is going to be something that needs to be agreed upon. But that's in any dealings between 2 parties. If I'm at a yard sale & wanna buy some old DVD for 2 bucks, but they want 4 bucks for it one of us needs to bend or both of us can bend with 3 bucks being the final price...assuming I got an extra buck on me & the seller doesn't need that extra buck he gave up of course.

So of course Arum isn't going to agree to a deal that doesn't get him something he feels undervalues his services just like I'd assume he doesn't with UniMas & TruTV during those deals. This is just another deal like all the others.

If they just want his prospects and cheap guys and will pay accordingly that is basically a minor deal, something that Arum needs to do build those guys up but it is not going to be a great lifeline in the near future.

Why does it gotta be a lifeline today? This is where things are going regardless if its today, tomorrow or 5 years from now. Building a relationship with the team you think will be the last man standing isn't a bad place to be for the first guy in from the boxing world.

For example if Netflix or Amazon wanna do a $10M deal & Hulu or Twitter wanna do a $20M deal I think I have to put in some serious consideration if I wanna build relationships with the more promising players in this new market or if I wanna cash grab more money now with companies that very well may go belly up before a winner in this new marketplace emerges so it won't be a long term relationship. So I could end up holding my dick in 2022 when Amazon is the king of this marketplace & GBP or PBC has a relationship with them & now I'm the odd guy out with a strategic streaming partner & I gotta go back to streaming elusively to cats on TR's website again with its poor hits per day number.

How many eyeballs are Shakur Stevenson going to bring in, is that going to make people shell out for Amazon Prime which last I checked is not cheap, is that sort of low level attraction going to make Amazon want more boxing?

Amazon gots books on sh^t 7 people care about. They got shows that work & don't work. Idk the requirements Amazon or anyone else has with boxing specifically, but I know there are too many major players in this market & when that's the case all sorts of edges are explored & boxing is gonna be one of them. And Shakur has already got all sorts of attention. He was a Time top 100 people or some such sh^t like that with some magazine or something. This is a kid people care about. If its enough people idk. That's for the guys with the money to decide, but boxing is a sport people wanna see, people pay money to see it now, so people will wanna see boxing content on streaming platforms. Therefore it'll be on a streaming platform in one of these new competitors to traditional TV.

Its that simple. If Shakur is sellable or you need a bunch of prospects or a bunch of contenders or the name guys of TR is debatable as well as there price & Arum's cut. That's all behind the scenes stuff that's surely doable.

His one current saving grace is he can basically give away the Manny fight but that is in Austrailia, not a third world country by any means but I do question how streaming from there would have major challenges. Could be a very poor first impression, it could work out fine but there is certainly risk there.

What exactly would be the risk here if TR made a deal to also stream the Manny fight in July for an agreed upon price?

If Arum is paying to farm it out that eats into profits too because he needs the production abilities he already has plus some extra things.

Yea but this is standard business stuff that Arum is nothing if not accustomed to already. If I gotta do x then I need to be paid whatever amount. If I gotta do x + y then I need to be paid whatever + this much more. If I gotta do x + y + z then I need to be paid whatever + this much more + this. That's how sh^t works. There is nothing unique to this arrangement that he isn't already deal with with current TV deals & other dealings in boxing he's surely made thousands of times at this point.

Arum is basically in a position he has to make something occur so either he takes some risk on or he is likely to burn a bridge when he can't afford to be doing that. If it is just prospects and low end fights thing to me that isn't major at all, something he certainly needs to do like I said to get his prospects some shine but that is only going to help so much for the foreseeable future.

This is more valid, but I'd argue Peter Nelson has been burning lil pieces of the TR bridge for awhile lol. I think Arum is in more of a submissive position for once with HBO all Oliver Twisting with "please sir may I have another date".

I'm not sure there is much damage Arum would take from broadening out at this point. I'd argue if Arum took his toys & went home to a streaming network for the right price then he could always come back if that relationship did go bad. Or I'd even say if a streaming network isn't willing to pay as much as Arum needs to put Loma, Manny, Tim & Crawford on he could sign a deal for lesser name shows & keep Crawford, Tim & Loma on HBO & Manny on TR PPV or whatever exactly is the deal with Manny these days. I don't see why HBO would have a problem with that since they are turning down quality shows with Oscar Valdez, an exciting fighter worthy of a premium network fight, now.

[The Gambler1981]

Get into some specifics or examples here then. I don't really grasp how this is any different than any current exchange of money for content that Arum or any promoter has had with any "regular TV" network.

And I don't see beyond the normal deal with any content provider what risks streaming TV brings that broadcast TV doesn't. Its essentially the same thing.



But I don't see why this is any different then a TruTV or UniMas deal. Of course Arum getting what he wants & a interesting streaming party getting what they want is going to be something that needs to be agreed upon. But that's in any dealings between 2 parties. If I'm at a yard sale & wanna buy some old DVD for 2 bucks, but they want 4 bucks for it one of us needs to bend or both of us can bend with 3 bucks being the final price...assuming I got an extra buck on me & the seller doesn't need that extra buck he gave up of course.

So of course Arum isn't going to agree to a deal that doesn't get him something he feels undervalues his services just like I'd assume he doesn't with UniMas & TruTV during those deals. This is just another deal like all the others.



Why does it gotta be a lifeline today? This is where things are going regardless if its today, tomorrow or 5 years from now. Building a relationship with the team you think will be the last man standing isn't a bad place to be for the first guy in from the boxing world.

For example if Netflix or Amazon wanna do a $10M deal & Hulu or Twitter wanna do a $20M deal I think I have to put in some serious consideration if I wanna build relationships with the more promising players in this new market or if I wanna cash grab more money now with companies that very well may go belly up before a winner in this new marketplace emerges so it won't be a long term relationship. So I could end up holding my dick in 2022 when Amazon is the king of this marketplace & GBP or PBC has a relationship with them & now I'm the odd guy out with a strategic streaming partner & I gotta go back to streaming elusively to cats on TR's website again with its poor hits per day number.



Amazon gots books on sh^t 7 people care about. They got shows that work & don't work. Idk the requirements Amazon or anyone else has with boxing specifically, but I know there are too many major players in this market & when that's the case all sorts of edges are explored & boxing is gonna be one of them. And Shakur has already got all sorts of attention. He was a Time top 100 people or some such sh^t like that with some magazine or something. This is a kid people care about. If its enough people idk. That's for the guys with the money to decide, but boxing is a sport people wanna see, people pay money to see it now, so people will wanna see boxing content on streaming platforms. Therefore it'll be on a streaming platform in one of these new competitors to traditional TV.

Its that simple. If Shakur is sellable or you need a bunch of prospects or a bunch of contenders or the name guys of TR is debatable as well as there price & Arum's cut. That's all behind the scenes stuff that's surely doable.



What exactly would be the risk here if TR made a deal to also stream the Manny fight in July for an agreed upon price?



Yea but this is standard business stuff that Arum is nothing if not accustomed to already. If I gotta do x then I need to be paid whatever amount. If I gotta do x + y then I need to be paid whatever + this much more. If I gotta do x + y + z then I need to be paid whatever + this much more + this. That's how sh^t works. There is nothing unique to this arrangement that he isn't already deal with with current TV deals & other dealings in boxing he's surely made thousands of times at this point.



This is more valid, but I'd argue Peter Nelson has been burning lil pieces of the TR bridge for awhile lol. I think Arum is in more of a submissive position for once with HBO all Oliver Twisting with "please sir may I have another date".

I'm not sure there is much damage Arum would take from broadening out at this point. I'd argue if Arum took his toys & went home to a streaming network for the right price then he could always come back if that relationship did go bad. Or I'd even say if a streaming network isn't willing to pay as much as Arum needs to put Loma, Manny, Tim & Crawford on he could sign a deal for lesser name shows & keep Crawford, Tim & Loma on HBO & Manny on TR PPV or whatever exactly is the deal with Manny these days. I don't see why HBO would have a problem with that since they are turning down quality shows with Oscar Valdez, an exciting fighter worthy of a premium network fight, now.

Because if Arum is on the outs at HBO and it seems to be that he is as GBP seems to be taking more and more and their prospects are actually getting shine on ESPN. Then he needs a replacement ASAP.

Risk is money, risk is capital. He is going to have to put in capital to keep the company where it is if he is not getting the same amount of money per fight. I don't get how many more ways I can put it this to you, but if he is getting less per fight (and he surely is) that difference has to be made up somewhere by someone.

If he can't make a deal unless he gets X then there is no deal then he is in even worse shape because he has expenses that are constant and if his companies name is not up in lights as a premier promoter of boxing Top Rank will wither away. It is not about unique or different from the money side it is about what he is set up to operate as and what he can possibly get. Sitting around dying on the vine is not a viable option for Arum so something is better than nothing.

So no deal is not a viable equation for him either and also carries risk because someone with lower overhead that is willing to do it may get to take advantage of his declining. If they make a deal and it goes south who is to say HBO is still there and willing? In Top Ranks absence other players will suck up the dates they are not just going to give up access or help Arum out.

[Eff Pandas]

Because if Arum is on the outs at HBO and it seems to be that he is as GBP seems to be taking more and more and their prospects are actually getting shine on ESPN. Then he needs a replacement ASAP.

That's a situation that has nothing to do with these "risks of streaming" you talk about doe. This is Arum dealing with a past bad relationship with Nelson it seems to me. This is a whole other situation he got himself into.

Risk is money, risk is capital. He is going to have to put in capital to keep the company where it is if he is not getting the same amount of money per fight. I don't get how many more ways I can put it this to you, but if he is getting less per fight (and he surely is) that difference has to be made up somewhere by someone.

Well yea, but he's doing that now too. The daily risk Bob is dealing with now is the daily risk Bob would be dealing with in the future. But yea he needs to make sure all the ducks line up in a row so that he can make money.

And if he can't then he doesn't take the deal. Its that simple. Or if he can't conform to this new world of entertainment he goes outta business eventually. That's sorta how things work in any marketplace.

There is nothing unique in that regard to the streaming marketplace. These are all things one would have learned about in some 1950's college business course.

If he can't make a deal unless he gets X then there is no deal then he is in even worse shape because he has expenses that are constant and if his companies name is not up in lights as a premier promoter of boxing Top Rank will wither away. It is not about unique or different from the money side it is about what he is set up to operate as and what he can possibly get. Sitting around dying on the vine is not a viable option for Arum so something is better than nothing.

If dying on the vine equals more money for you then you losing money off the vine in a no win situation I think it is a viable option.

If TR can't conform to a new marketplace the company will die. And GBP, PBC, Matchroom or whoever for that matter.

That said I don't think TR is as incompetent in new & emerging markets or afraid of making moves they feel will be profitable for them as you seem to think they are. I think Arum listens to people inside TR about things he might not fully grasp or be up on &/or he's a younger 106 year old or however old he is then people wanna believe to have done as well as he's done where other promoters haven't. The guy knows this business like few others in it these days & an emerging market where he can make more money & be exposed to new fans of boxing isn't gonna phase him.

So no deal is not a viable equation for him either and also carries risk because someone with lower overhead that is willing to do it may get to take advantage of his declining. If they make a deal and it goes south who is to say HBO is still there and willing? In Top Ranks absence other players will suck up the dates they are not just going to give up access or help Arum out.

Well if HBO Boxing dies while Arum is with a streaming network I'd argue he's lucky to not have been with HBO when HBO died lol. But if HBO doesn't want Crawford or Loma or whoever the guy who pans out with TR in 3 years or so I'm sure someone else will. Nelson might not even be around by then. Could be a friendly face in the role who loves Arum. Who knows about all that. Its all wild speculation.

All you can do in the now is try to make the best choices today & I tend to believe the first guy from boxing with a deal in the streaming world is gonna have a favorable chance to become the leader or among the leaders in boxing over this next era we are moving into & will for sure make some nice money over the coming decades as bidding wars take place in a market with too many players with big bankrolls.

[The Gambler1981]

That's a situation that has nothing to do with these "risks of streaming" you talk about doe. This is Arum dealing with a past bad relationship with Nelson it seems to me. This is a whole other situation he got himself into.



Well yea, but he's doing that now too. The daily risk Bob is dealing with now is the daily risk Bob would be dealing with in the future. But yea he needs to make sure all the ducks line up in a row so that he can make money.

And if he can't then he doesn't take the deal. Its that simple. Or if he can't conform to this new world of entertainment he goes outta business eventually. That's sorta how things work in any marketplace.

There is nothing unique in that regard to the streaming marketplace. These are all things one would have learned about in some 1950's college business course.



If dying on the vine equals more money for you then you losing money off the vine in a no win situation I think it is a viable option.

If TR can't conform to a new marketplace the company will die. And GBP, PBC, Matchroom or whoever for that matter.

That said I don't think TR is as incompetent in new & emerging markets or afraid of making moves they feel will be profitable for them as you seem to think they are. I think Arum listens to people inside TR about things he might not fully grasp or be up on &/or he's a younger 106 year old or however old he is then people wanna believe to have done as well as he's done where other promoters haven't. The guy knows this business like few others in it these days & an emerging market where he can make more money & be exposed to new fans of boxing isn't gonna phase him.



Well if HBO Boxing dies while Arum is with a streaming network I'd argue he's lucky to not have been with HBO when HBO died lol. But if HBO doesn't want Crawford or Loma or whoever the guy who pans out with TR in 3 years or so I'm sure someone else will. Nelson might not even be around by then. Could be a friendly face in the role who loves Arum. Who knows about all that. Its all wild speculation.

All you can do in the now is try to make the best choices today & I tend to believe the first guy from boxing with a deal in the streaming world is gonna have a favorable chance to become the leader or among the leaders in boxing over this next era we are moving into & will for sure make some nice money over the coming decades as bidding wars take place in a market with too many players with big bankrolls.

Those who can't remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

All you said are risks, streaming only amplifies it because it is a new medium and boxing fans are not the most open to new ways of doing things. Some of it is being forced on Arum but if he wants to be in the business he needs to deal with it and weather the storm that change brings. If he can come out on the other side he can come out way ahead, but getting to the other side is not easy and to think he won't suffer any pain for shifting his operation is very optimistic. Arum for damn sure is considering every downside risk that such a decision will bring.

Staying with HBO carries risk as well. Go back to the sinking ship scenario. You are on a slowly sinking ship, help is supposed to arrive soon before the boat will sink at the current rate but the water is cold enough that you will die if in it for any amount of time. There are also strong currents and none of the life boats have survival supplies. Do you wait on the sinking ship hoping it doesn't get worse because help may arrive, or do you get in a life boat that may get pushed far away and never get saved. You have two options neither are good because you decided to take a bargain basement boat trip, so past decision come into play in giving you these two risky options.