What is a "close fight" are they always controversial?

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  • Deletrious
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    #1

    What is a "close fight" are they always controversial?

    Post Golovkin-Jacobs, and before that Kovalev Ward, there was a lot of talk about the fight being a close fight and some felt further that it was also a controversial or disputed decision. I am gonig to explore those definitions a bit.

    What is close?

    Well clearly a 7-5 (115-113) fight is close. If one round goes the other way, you have a draw.
    So, is 8-4 (116-112) close? One guy won twice as many rounds as the other guy, he can give up one round and still have won. I would argue, 8-4 is not a close fight, it's not a wide victory either, but it's not close.

    Similarly, going 6-6 with a knockdown, (114-113) is a close fight. But for the knock down, you have a draw, if you gave up one more round, 5-7, you would actually lose. Note, that was the result in Kovalev Ward, one of the reasons that fight was so controversial.

    So what about 7-5 with a knock down (115-112)? Like 8-4, with 7-5 and a knock down, you can give up a round and still have one. However, in 8-4, if you give up 2 rounds you have a draw, whereas here you would have a narrow loss.

    If you define close as the ability to give up one round and change the result of the fight, (win to draw, or win to loss), then by that definition 7-5 with a knockdown is not close. I think that is the most logical definition of what is close, that changing one round changes the result of the fight. Applied to Golovkin Jacobs, changing one round would result in a split decision win rather than a unanimous win. It's the same result in the history books.

    Now, was the win controversial or disputed?
    Well, some people treat all close decisions as controversial or disputed, which is not a crazy definition, if it was close enough one round would have changed the result, you could probably also argue one round could have gone the other way.
    Besides closeness of the fight, whether or not the judges were unanimous should be considered. If different judges came to different conclusions, then unless that one judge is a bizarre outlier, it definitely implies that the result is in dispute.
    In Golovkin Jacobs, the judges were unanimous. If you break it down more precisely, The were unanimous on 8 of 12 rounds. Golovkin won 5 unanimously, and Jacobs won 3 unanimously. Given the knockdown, Golovkin only needed 1 out of 4 disputed rounds in order to win.
    Far more controversial would be a result where the person who got knocked down swept all the close rounds, which is precisely what happened in Kovalev Ward. Yes there is an argument that Ward won, but it seems more liekly and more fair to give at least 1 of the 4 close rounds to Kovalev.
    In Golovkin Jacobs, 2 of the 3 judges split the disputed rounds 2 and 2, and 1 of the judges, Deluca, Gave Jacobs 3 out of 4 of them.

    Looked at it another way, if judges were allowed to say a round is a draw, as they used to, it is likely that you would have 5 golovkin, 3 jacobs, and 4 draws, plus the knockdown.

    Therefore, it seems far less applicable to call Golovkin Jacobs controversial than Kovalev Ward by comparison.

    Besides closeness, and how unanimous the judges are, you can also look at punch stats. If the fighter who won also hit more, there is clearly no controversy, but if the reverse is true, that would be evidence of judging mistake. Of course, punch stats are not the only thing that determines who wins a round, but boxing is about hit and not be hit. Likewise, Golovkin threw more hit more and hit at a higher percentage, whereas Kovalev, while closer to Ward, also hit Ward more. For the same reasons those numbers support a controversy in Kovalev Ward, they indicate that the result was correct in Golovkin Jacobs.

    Golovkin clearly won on the after fight 'who would you rather be' test as well. While Jacobs face was puffy and his eyes were swelling close to close, Golovkin looked less marked up than he did after five rounds with Brook.

    So why do some fights feel controversial when all the numbers support the result? Several reasons, if you expect an extreme result, a knock out, then one person can feel like a winner merely by surviving. The expectation was that Jacobs and Ward would get knocked out, since that didn't happen, they must have in turn won. It's not true but can certainly feel true.

    The fighter to win the later rounds leaves the last impression. Boxing is scored round by round. Winning the last 5 rounds will feel like a terrific comeback, but you have still lost. (Garcia-Peterson). Similarly, doing well after a knockdown feels like a comeback. While that can feel correct to casual fans, the judges score the fight round by round.

    Ringside and judges see more that casuals, who's reactions can be heard on television. People in the stands see punches thrown, not necessarily punches blocked, caught, or slipped. I bet a lot of people were surprised by the compubox results, Jacobs himself thought that he threw and hit more, neither of which was true. Like Hagler v Leonard, methodical jabbing can be outweighed in the minds of the casual fan and even the judge by spurts of flashy combination throwing. Even if the jab hits half the time and the combos miss most of the time. That's why what the judge sees is different from the people in the stands.
  • bluebeam
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    #2
    I had jacobs 114-113 watching it live with no sound. It's the first fight i ever watched without commentary.

    I have to watch it again, maybe I'll score it differently the 2nd time.

    Jacobs made golovkin fight at his pace for most of the fight and that's why I feel he won the close rounds.

    Pacquiao vs marquez 1 and 2
    Mosley vs de la hoya 1
    Mayweather vs Castillo 1
    Hopkins vs taylor 1

    Examples of close fights, all had rematches.

    Jacobs vs golovkin 2 needs to happen sooner than later

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    • Sadiqkingofko
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      #3
      Originally posted by bluebeam
      I had jacobs 114-113 watching it live with no sound. It's the first fight i ever watched without commentary.

      I have to watch it again, maybe I'll score it differently the 2nd time.

      Jacobs made golovkin fight at his pace for most of the fight and that's why I feel he won the close rounds.

      Pacquiao vs marquez 1 and 2
      Mosley vs de la hoya 1
      Mayweather vs Castillo 1
      Hopkins vs taylor 1

      Examples of close fights, all had rematches.

      Jacobs vs golovkin 2 needs to happen sooner than later
      I agree, the rematch needs to happen asap

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      • Deletrious
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        #4
        Originally posted by bluebeam
        I had jacobs 114-113 watching it live with no sound. It's the first fight i ever watched without commentary.

        I have to watch it again, maybe I'll score it differently the 2nd time.

        Jacobs made golovkin fight at his pace for most of the fight and that's why I feel he won the close rounds.

        Pacquiao vs marquez 1 and 2
        Mosley vs de la hoya 1
        Mayweather vs Castillo 1
        Hopkins vs taylor 1

        Examples of close fights, all had rematches.

        Jacobs vs golovkin 2 needs to happen sooner than later
        That score isn't crazy and I would absolutely support a rematch, I would say in September if Canelo avoids Golovkin, or immediately after that fight in December/January.

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        • Robbie Barrett
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          #5
          Originally posted by Deletrious
          Post Golovkin-Jacobs, and before that Kovalev Ward, there was a lot of talk about the fight being a close fight and some felt further that it was also a controversial or disputed decision. I am gonig to explore those definitions a bit.

          What is close?

          Well clearly a 7-5 (115-113) fight is close. If one round goes the other way, you have a draw.
          So, is 8-4 (116-112) close? One guy won twice as many rounds as the other guy, he can give up one round and still have won. I would argue, 8-4 is not a close fight, it's not a wide victory either, but it's not close.

          Similarly, going 6-6 with a knockdown, (114-113) is a close fight. But for the knock down, you have a draw, if you gave up one more round, 5-7, you would actually lose. Note, that was the result in Kovalev Ward, one of the reasons that fight was so controversial.

          So what about 7-5 with a knock down (115-112)? Like 8-4, with 7-5 and a knock down, you can give up a round and still have one. However, in 8-4, if you give up 2 rounds you have a draw, whereas here you would have a narrow loss.

          If you define close as the ability to give up one round and change the result of the fight, (win to draw, or win to loss), then by that definition 7-5 with a knockdown is not close. I think that is the most logical definition of what is close, that changing one round changes the result of the fight. Applied to Golovkin Jacobs, changing one round would result in a split decision win rather than a unanimous win. It's the same result in the history books.

          Now, was the win controversial or disputed?
          Well, some people treat all close decisions as controversial or disputed, which is not a crazy definition, if it was close enough one round would have changed the result, you could probably also argue one round could have gone the other way.
          Besides closeness of the fight, whether or not the judges were unanimous should be considered. If different judges came to different conclusions, then unless that one judge is a bizarre outlier, it definitely implies that the result is in dispute.
          In Golovkin Jacobs, the judges were unanimous. If you break it down more precisely, The were unanimous on 8 of 12 rounds. Golovkin won 5 unanimously, and Jacobs won 3 unanimously. Given the knockdown, Golovkin only needed 1 out of 4 disputed rounds in order to win.
          Far more controversial would be a result where the person who got knocked down swept all the close rounds, which is precisely what happened in Kovalev Ward. Yes there is an argument that Ward won, but it seems more liekly and more fair to give at least 1 of the 4 close rounds to Kovalev.
          In Golovkin Jacobs, 2 of the 3 judges split the disputed rounds 2 and 2, and 1 of the judges, Deluca, Gave Jacobs 3 out of 4 of them.

          Looked at it another way, if judges were allowed to say a round is a draw, as they used to, it is likely that you would have 5 golovkin, 3 jacobs, and 4 draws, plus the knockdown.

          Therefore, it seems far less applicable to call Golovkin Jacobs controversial than Kovalev Ward by comparison.

          Besides closeness, and how unanimous the judges are, you can also look at punch stats. If the fighter who won also hit more, there is clearly no controversy, but if the reverse is true, that would be evidence of judging mistake. Of course, punch stats are not the only thing that determines who wins a round, but boxing is about hit and not be hit. Likewise, Golovkin threw more hit more and hit at a higher percentage, whereas Kovalev, while closer to Ward, also hit Ward more. For the same reasons those numbers support a controversy in Kovalev Ward, they indicate that the result was correct in Golovkin Jacobs.

          Golovkin clearly won on the after fight 'who would you rather be' test as well. While Jacobs face was puffy and his eyes were swelling close to close, Golovkin looked less marked up than he did after five rounds with Brook.

          So why do some fights feel controversial when all the numbers support the result? Several reasons, if you expect an extreme result, a knock out, then one person can feel like a winner merely by surviving. The expectation was that Jacobs and Ward would get knocked out, since that didn't happen, they must have in turn won. It's not true but can certainly feel true.

          The fighter to win the later rounds leaves the last impression. Boxing is scored round by round. Winning the last 5 rounds will feel like a terrific comeback, but you have still lost. (Garcia-Peterson). Similarly, doing well after a knockdown feels like a comeback. While that can feel correct to casual fans, the judges score the fight round by round.

          Ringside and judges see more that casuals, who's reactions can be heard on television. People in the stands see punches thrown, not necessarily punches blocked, caught, or slipped. I bet a lot of people were surprised by the compubox results, Jacobs himself thought that he threw and hit more, neither of which was true. Like Hagler v Leonard, methodical jabbing can be outweighed in the minds of the casual fan and even the judge by spurts of flashy combination throwing. Even if the jab hits half the time and the combos miss most of the time. That's why what the judge sees is different from the people in the stands.
          When 40%+ of fans think the other guy won is a disputed win.

          You want to use all 3 judges agreeing as evidence it was a clear round? All 3 judges agreed on 5 rounds for Ward and only 3 for Kovalev.


          Golovkin fans a pathetic.

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          • Zaryu
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            #6
            In this day and age, if a fight is competitive, it gives ammunition to a fan base to cry robbery. To answer what makes a fight close, you have to go beyond the number of rounds won. You also have to evaluate how many rounds were truly close. For example if you have a fight six rounds a piece, and one fighter won 6 rounds clearly and the other won 3 clearly, that means 3 rounds were very close, and someone scoring a draw probably let their bias get in the way of scoring because they gave the benefit of the doubt to the same fighter every time.

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            • HAMMER77777
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              #7
              Originally posted by Deletrious
              Post Golovkin-Jacobs, and before that Kovalev Ward, there was a lot of talk about the fight being a close fight and some felt further that it was also a controversial or disputed decision. I am gonig to explore those definitions a bit.

              What is close?

              Well clearly a 7-5 (115-113) fight is close. If one round goes the other way, you have a draw.
              So, is 8-4 (116-112) close? One guy won twice as many rounds as the other guy, he can give up one round and still have won. I would argue, 8-4 is not a close fight, it's not a wide victory either, but it's not close.

              Similarly, going 6-6 with a knockdown, (114-113) is a close fight. But for the knock down, you have a draw, if you gave up one more round, 5-7, you would actually lose. Note, that was the result in Kovalev Ward, one of the reasons that fight was so controversial.

              So what about 7-5 with a knock down (115-112)? Like 8-4, with 7-5 and a knock down, you can give up a round and still have one. However, in 8-4, if you give up 2 rounds you have a draw, whereas here you would have a narrow loss.

              If you define close as the ability to give up one round and change the result of the fight, (win to draw, or win to loss), then by that definition 7-5 with a knockdown is not close. I think that is the most logical definition of what is close, that changing one round changes the result of the fight. Applied to Golovkin Jacobs, changing one round would result in a split decision win rather than a unanimous win. It's the same result in the history books.

              Now, was the win controversial or disputed?
              Well, some people treat all close decisions as controversial or disputed, which is not a crazy definition, if it was close enough one round would have changed the result, you could probably also argue one round could have gone the other way.
              Besides closeness of the fight, whether or not the judges were unanimous should be considered. If different judges came to different conclusions, then unless that one judge is a bizarre outlier, it definitely implies that the result is in dispute.
              In Golovkin Jacobs, the judges were unanimous. If you break it down more precisely, The were unanimous on 8 of 12 rounds. Golovkin won 5 unanimously, and Jacobs won 3 unanimously. Given the knockdown, Golovkin only needed 1 out of 4 disputed rounds in order to win.
              Far more controversial would be a result where the person who got knocked down swept all the close rounds, which is precisely what happened in Kovalev Ward. Yes there is an argument that Ward won, but it seems more liekly and more fair to give at least 1 of the 4 close rounds to Kovalev.
              In Golovkin Jacobs, 2 of the 3 judges split the disputed rounds 2 and 2, and 1 of the judges, Deluca, Gave Jacobs 3 out of 4 of them.

              Looked at it another way, if judges were allowed to say a round is a draw, as they used to, it is likely that you would have 5 golovkin, 3 jacobs, and 4 draws, plus the knockdown.

              Therefore, it seems far less applicable to call Golovkin Jacobs controversial than Kovalev Ward by comparison.

              Besides closeness, and how unanimous the judges are, you can also look at punch stats. If the fighter who won also hit more, there is clearly no controversy, but if the reverse is true, that would be evidence of judging mistake. Of course, punch stats are not the only thing that determines who wins a round, but boxing is about hit and not be hit. Likewise, Golovkin threw more hit more and hit at a higher percentage, whereas Kovalev, while closer to Ward, also hit Ward more. For the same reasons those numbers support a controversy in Kovalev Ward, they indicate that the result was correct in Golovkin Jacobs.

              Golovkin clearly won on the after fight 'who would you rather be' test as well. While Jacobs face was puffy and his eyes were swelling close to close, Golovkin looked less marked up than he did after five rounds with Brook.

              So why do some fights feel controversial when all the numbers support the result? Several reasons, if you expect an extreme result, a knock out, then one person can feel like a winner merely by surviving. The expectation was that Jacobs and Ward would get knocked out, since that didn't happen, they must have in turn won. It's not true but can certainly feel true.

              The fighter to win the later rounds leaves the last impression. Boxing is scored round by round. Winning the last 5 rounds will feel like a terrific comeback, but you have still lost. (Garcia-Peterson). Similarly, doing well after a knockdown feels like a comeback. While that can feel correct to casual fans, the judges score the fight round by round.

              Ringside and judges see more that casuals, who's reactions can be heard on television. People in the stands see punches thrown, not necessarily punches blocked, caught, or slipped. I bet a lot of people were surprised by the compubox results, Jacobs himself thought that he threw and hit more, neither of which was true. Like Hagler v Leonard, methodical jabbing can be outweighed in the minds of the casual fan and even the judge by spurts of flashy combination throwing. Even if the jab hits half the time and the combos miss most of the time. That's why what the judge sees is different from the people in the stands.
              Don't forget to factor in 10-10 rounds. Most judges dont use them but they can and they should. I average giving about 2-3 even rounds per Fight. Also 10-8 rounds with no knockdown. I do that in dominant rounds. Also, knockdown rounds which are still 10-9. I do that if the guy knocked down, otherWise Won the round. I give myself options when scoring, instead of just the usual scoring methods with no flexibility

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              • The plunger man
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                #8
                The problem with a close fight is each fighter has there fan base so alot of the time the fan sees his fighter through favourable eyes and discounts anything the other fighter might be doing ....most of the time they see things they wanna see and won't admit that there fighter was beaten...i'm a follower of triple ggg but with me seeing how i saw it i slightly gave it to jacobs....it wasnt a robbery it was close fight that each fighter could claim they won....its also the same for when marvin hagler lost to sugar ray leonard....if you go by the scoring system and award each round as it happens then leonard won...its the same with golovkin overall with his knockdowns he sc****d by but giving each round then for me jacobs won more.....close fights are close fights...controversail fights are when a fighter clearly dominates but still loses the decision or a draw....example lewis vs holyfield 1...9 times out of 10 close fights will always cause controversy because both fighters have there supporters.. I dont know what makes a close fight except both fighters want it the same and skill level they are on par with each other...very hard to explain
                Last edited by The plunger man; 03-24-2017, 05:19 PM.

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                • hugh grant
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                  #9
                  GGG v jacoibs was competitive but wasn't close. 8-4 isn't close really.
                  Only cos it was in Jacobs backyard was the score that close
                  Last edited by hugh grant; 03-24-2017, 05:36 PM.

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                  • Eff Pandas
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                    #10
                    I don't trust the official judges too much in deciding if a fight is close all that much. I mean for me. Cuz obviously if the judges had it close its close cuz they are the deciding factor. And yea I don't think people realize how close 8-4 even is. A guy won 2/3's of the rounds, but if a mere 2 or 3 rounds are close it could be a "controversial" decision cuz thats within the margin of error for the other guy winning.

                    For me a fight is close if there are several rounds that I have a difficult time determining who won or its just not clear who could've won the round. So even if there are 4 or so clear rounds going to one particular guy you can have a close fight if the other 8 rounds were won or lost via a flurry or random 1 big punch.

                    I think boxing needs to redo the 10 point must system to reward clearly won rounds better. The standard clearly won round should be 10-8 instead of 10-9. Close rounds won by a punch or three should be 10-9. Right now both those rounds are scored the same, cuz judges are discouraged from scoring rounds even, & if its a close round a judge could have an arguement its 10-9 to either fighter if that punch or three landed didn't define the winner as well for one judge as another. This would make for less errors in those occasions when the wrong guy actually wins + have announced scorecards that sound more like a fight looked to most fans more often then they currently do. I mean I cringe a little anytime I hear a scorecard not cuz I'm necessarily worried the wrong guy gets the W, but because even the scores for the right guy sound ******ed to what I watched wayyyyyy more often then they should.

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