Would Roy Be The Greatest If He Retired After Beating Ruiz????

[Sadiqkingofko]

It would have been higher than it is now.

But that being said there was a lot of missing names on his resume from when he was in his prime. His best wins were a very green Hopkins and a toney who he matched up very well against, and lost 47lbs in 6 weeks for the fight. (WAY MORE than jones lost for the Tarver fight btw, didn't affect toners chin though, hmmm)

Names like McLellan, Benn, Eubank, Darius M, Calzaghe etc. Of course he also would have been missing Tarver had he retired then. And people knew this even back then. That was the criticism of Roy was he had all the talent but usually fought lower level opponents on HBO and he did this for most of his prime. With the occasional high level guy who was always a boxer, never a puncher, mixed in.

I think had he retired then people would have asked why there were so many names missing on his resume.

A while back I did some research into the media around the time that roy beat ruiz and it's interesting, there was a lot of names saying that Lennox Lewis really ought to avoid Roy, which looking back is absolutely ludicrous. But it goes to show how gassed people can get over a well matched, flashy fighter.

My honest opinion on Roy, I think he had some of the best natural gifts of any fighter. Amazing handspeed, really good power below 175, great engine and really good confidence in himself.

However I also think that chin was always a problem and against some of the heavier punchers mentioned, I think had he fought them all, one of them would have got to him.

I don't belive the myth that losing 20lbs (roy was 195 hydrated against Ruiz so if you factor in hydration it was more like 10lb of lean mass) turned jones chin into glass for the rest of his life, that just makes no sense but the jones fans cling to it. I think he was always harbouring a weak chin.

But yeah that's my thoughts on roy.

Gotta agree with what you said, and I don't beileve that losing weight ruined his chin, once I saw Manny Steward explaining what happened to Roy's chin and he said that Tarver's KO punch permantley ruined Roy's chin, I don't know he might be right

[richardt]

I think in hindsight you can judge rjj. Plus wasn't rjj caught usdusding poeds?
So top 20 is more trealistic now alongsdide Floyd.

No, he bought an over the counter product once at GNC and never used it again or tested positive before or after. That was against Hall. Hall tested positive for a banned substance that night.

[richardt]

It would have been higher than it is now.

But that being said there was a lot of missing names on his resume from when he was in his prime. His best wins were a very green Hopkins and a toney who he matched up very well against, and lost 47lbs in 6 weeks for the fight. (WAY MORE than jones lost for the Tarver fight btw, didn't affect toners chin though, hmmm)

Names like McLellan, Benn, Eubank, Darius M, Calzaghe etc. Of course he also would have been missing Tarver had he retired then. And people knew this even back then. That was the criticism of Roy was he had all the talent but usually fought lower level opponents on HBO and he did this for most of his prime. With the occasional high level guy who was always a boxer, never a puncher, mixed in.

I think had he retired then people would have asked why there were so many names missing on his resume.

A while back I did some research into the media around the time that roy beat ruiz and it's interesting, there was a lot of names saying that Lennox Lewis really ought to avoid Roy, which looking back is absolutely ludicrous. But it goes to show how gassed people can get over a well matched, flashy fighter.

My honest opinion on Roy, I think he had some of the best natural gifts of any fighter. Amazing handspeed, really good power below 175, great engine and really good confidence in himself.

However I also think that chin was always a problem and against some of the heavier punchers mentioned, I think had he fought them all, one of them would have got to him.

I don't belive the myth that losing 20lbs (roy was 195 hydrated against Ruiz so if you factor in hydration it was more like 10lb of lean mass) turned jones chin into glass for the rest of his life, that just makes no sense but the jones fans cling to it. I think he was always harbouring a weak chin.

But yeah that's my thoughts on roy.

DM was a standoff between promotions that wanted the fight here and Germany. DM was scheduled to fight Telesco to build up his brand for a Jones fight in the USA but when DM wasnt happy with the money, he pulled out. Square Ring Inc., offered DM a co-main event on a Roy Jones HBO card, DM's team didnt want to be considered as on the undercard and declined. Jones was PFP #1 in the world and was ready to fight DM but DM's team were quite difficult to negotiate with. Murad Muhhamad even flew out to Germany to speak with DM's team and the money split for a fight there was in favor of DM.

Jones also offered Frankie Liles a 1 million dollar pay day and Liles turned it down. I have yet to see a fighter who has fought everyone and in fact some of the guys that Jones didnt fight, didnt fight each other. Not everyone fights everyone.

And Toney is a BAD example of losing weight. Toney did not bulk up by adding muscle to fight in another division and then come back down. Toney dropped body fat which is not the same as dropping muscle weight.

Jones had a solid chin in his prime and went through the AM's having fought guys with power and the Pro's having fought guys with power and it was not until he was past his prime when he aged rapidly by making a HUGE error in judgement by forcing his body to cannibalize muscle by dropping weight fast that he was never the same. Tarver got under his skin and he dropped weight in a dangerous manner. His ego got in the way of better judgement. Jones was finally spent as a top flight fighting machine. History is littered with durable fighters who were knocked out when they tried to lose weight in the wrong fashion and too fast. Punch resistance drops, a fighter ages their body, and the result is disastrous.

[richardt]

Gotta agree with what you said, and I don't beileve that losing weight ruined his chin, once I saw Manny Steward explaining what happened to Roy's chin and he said that Tarver's KO punch permantley ruined Roy's chin, I don't know he might be right

Losing fat is one thing but losing muscle even more so causes the punch resistance to go down and once that happens, a fighter past their prime is never the same and the fighter's durability is gone. In one 3 month period, an athlete ages themselves by years by putting their body through something that it cannot handle and a price is paid. When Jones came out of that dressing room for the Tarver fight, he looked gaunt and sickly and it was a portent of things to come. History is filled with these examples of dropping weight and punch resistance evaporating.

[Blackclouds]

Losing fat is one thing but losing muscle even more so causes the punch resistance to go down and once that happens, a fighter past their prime is never the same and the fighter's durability is gone. In one 3 month period, an athlete ages themselves by years by putting their body through something that it cannot handle and a price is paid. When Jones came out of that dressing room for the Tarver fight, he looked gaunt and sickly and it was a portent of things to come. History is filled with these examples of dropping weight and punch resistance evaporating.

Thanks for the history lesson. RJJ did look sick and drained for the first Tarver fight and barely scammed a victory (I didn't think he won). Never was the same after draining from heavyweight. Also I think RJJ was already declining before Ruiz as his punch output was declining and he resorted to pot shots and a measured pace.

[richardt]

Thanks for the history lesson. RJJ did look sick and drained for the first Tarver fight and barely scammed a victory (I didn't think he won). Never was the same after draining from heavyweight. Also I think RJJ was already declining before Ruiz as his punch output was declining and he resorted to pot shots and a measured pace.

Thats true. Jones was slipping around the Telesco and Harding fights but he was able to be selective with Ruiz and his lacking of punch count didnt hurt him there. Yeah, the past prime Jones was pot shots, but prime Jones was a blizzard. My 4th favorite fighter of all time, and his combinations and foot speed and angles were pure eye candy, dazzling to watch. Like Leonard when he uncorked his famous combinations that they called the shoe shine.

[Redd Foxx]

I can't answer the question but one thing is for certain, had he retired then, there would still be massive speculation and debate to this day about his standing among the all time greats.

[The D3vil]

IMO, he's the greatest post-Ali fighter and all-time top 10 already.

To hold him past his prime against him isn't fair, that's like holding Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick against Ali or something.

I'll remember Roy from 92-2001 or so as the greatest fighter I've ever seen with my eyes with Pernell Whittaker and Floyd Jr. 2nd & 3rd.

[iamboxing]

Would he have been #1 P4P of all time if he retired then, that would mean he started a light middleweight, won a title at middleweight, super middleweight, and light heavyweight than went up two weight divisions and won the Heavyweight championship of the world

Most think of him as ONE OF the greatest of all time even with those losses, and I for one don't count them against him. I wish he did retire earlier though.

[iamboxing]

It would have been higher than it is now.

But that being said there was a lot of missing names on his resume from when he was in his prime. His best wins were a very green Hopkins and a toney who he matched up very well against, and lost 47lbs in 6 weeks for the fight. (WAY MORE than jones lost for the Tarver fight btw, didn't affect toners chin though, hmmm)

Names like McLellan, Benn, Eubank, Darius M, Calzaghe etc. Of course he also would have been missing Tarver had he retired then. And people knew this even back then. That was the criticism of Roy was he had all the talent but usually fought lower level opponents on HBO and he did this for most of his prime. With the occasional high level guy who was always a boxer, never a puncher, mixed in.
.

You got it the other way round. It was Eubank and Benn who avoided RJJ and it's stupid that you consider weight an issue for Toney's loss yet dismiss it when talking about RJJ's decline.