PAC's PED talk in 2008-2011 should be laid to rest for good

[.!WAR MIKEY!.]

i look at mayweather and pacquaio as cheaters, pacquio turned down test, mayweather breoke rule THAN got a retroactive permission 20 days after the fight. both cheaters just one have a better PR team.

[BrometheusBob.]

Yep these 'experts' think Manny was knocking people out left and right ...but really he never really knocked people out cold at welterweight besides Hatton. He'd just punish guys to the point where the ref had to step in.

These haters just need to realize as Pac aged, his workrate gradually went down. And after KTFO6, he became a different fighter. He became a little less reckless, more careful, and focused a bit more on defence.

A nice summarized version of my above post lol

[LoadedWraps]

His punches still land hard, he still gets knockdowns, but he's throwing fewer punches in every successive fight with the exception of the Rios fight (but Rios is a pretty still target). To me it looks to be a very predictable and understandable decline with age. Explosive, offense heavy fighters like Pacquiao aren't usually still considered A-level at 37.

I also think the Marquez 4 stoppage played a huge impact. He said to Stephen A Smith something along the lines of him not wanting to get 'careless' when pursuing Vargas, which is the same word he used to describe as the reason to why Marquez stopped him. You can reasonably figure that he's still thinking about being knocked out that badly in each and every fight since then and it affects the decisions he makes in the ring.

I'm not sold on Ricky being a good example of his decline in punching power. People point to that KO as evidence that Pacquiao had some other worldly power at that point but I disagree. For one, I think Hatton's chin was not especially strong. Plus Hatton took many full, clean hooks and no Pacquiao opponents since then were as available for those kinda shots (except Rios, who has a sturdy chin. His KO loss to Bradley was caused by body shots and Pac threw practically 0 of those on Rios).

The Hatton KO is an anomaly in the bigger picture. Practically all his other knockouts were caused by an accumulation of punishment + well put together combos. Harder to get those kinds of knockouts if you are throwing fewer punches overall and aren't throwing combinations (look at the punch stats for his last few fights + how many combos did you notice him throw at Vargas?).

He's getting knockdowns against a much lower level of opposition! And they aren't even staying down.

Rios, Algieri, and Vargas are a few levels below guys like Cotto and Hatton in their primes.

Pac hopped off the juice and onto the Toradol.

[R_Walken]

No it shouldn't be laid to rest. he most likely was juiced to the **** for his spectacular run. Great fighter but let's be honest

And it's been revealed he's been shooting Torodol for however long probably since at least Dela Hoya

You can't just ignore these facts

[dazzo16]

he's not ko-ing people like he was when he was on epo, he's not throwing 8 punch flurries round after round like he used to

[Scipio2009]

After Miguel Cotto, he fought a turtle shell defense clottey who was on the high guard ALL NIGHT. And then a Durable Margarito and a Durable Mosley with Margo breaking his eye socket and mosley wanting to quit. All fighters manny fought other than Marquez were bigger than him by 10+ pounds or more.

The only time that Miguel Cotto was ever stopped in a fight, Margarito had to assault him (allegedly) with plaster-loaded gloves; also note that, immediately after the fight, Cotto went up to 154lbs.

To try and act as if Miguel Cotto isn't as durable a fighter as anyone else that Pacquiao has fought, or that Cotto didn't significantly outweight Pacquiao, is ridiculous.

nice try though

[Scipio2009]

He knocked Algieri down 6 times. He's the first to knock down Vargas and Vargas has never been knocked out in his career. Rios is known to be a tough guy and at the time almost impossible to knock out.

Rios got knocked out by Bradly but from most accounts he had weight issues coming into that fight and wasn't looking good.

..Algieri was on his bike against Pac... and with his new trainer, chose to fight Spence toe to toe and he paid the price for it.

.....
Geez ...the haters are for real.

Pac is still scoring knock downs. It's just these guys don't stay down.

Since 2011...he scored knockdowns against Mosley, JMM, Algieri, Bradley, Vargas.......I don't know who else.... Clottey was a turtle, and Margarito paid the price with a damaged eye for life.

Let's be real here.

Errol Spence put his hands on Chris Algieri, and Algieri got put out in 5 rounds; Pacquiao put hands on Algieri, and Algieri made it through 12. keep ignoring reality if you want.

Manny Pacquiao appeared on the scene, and was savaging folks up the weight classes, all the way until (timing being interesting) someone with clout spoke up.

[Kigali]

No it shouldn't be laid to rest. he most likely was juiced to the **** for his spectacular run. Great fighter but let's be honest

And it's been revealed he's been shooting Torodol for however long probably since at least Dela Hoya

You can't just ignore these facts

[pvj]

Anyone who claims they have proof one way or the other should be banned.

In this day and age, NOONE is beyond steroid allegations.

To say this proves pac is not on steroids is laughable.....if anything, it leans towards those who claim pac is dirty. There is no way so many b level fighters all go 12 rounds with Pac in pac's prime.

But while su****ious, it doesn't prove he's dirty either. It could be age or the marquez effect kicking in.

[Scipio2009]

His punches still land hard, he still gets knockdowns, but he's throwing fewer punches in every successive fight with the exception of the Rios fight (but Rios is a pretty still target). To me it looks to be a very predictable and understandable decline with age. Explosive, offense heavy fighters like Pacquiao aren't usually still considered A-level at 37.

I also think the Marquez 4 stoppage played a huge impact. He said to Stephen A Smith something along the lines of him not wanting to get 'careless' when pursuing Vargas, which is the same word he used to describe as the reason to why Marquez stopped him. You can reasonably figure that he's still thinking about being knocked out that badly in each and every fight since then and it affects the decisions he makes in the ring.

I'm not sold on Ricky being a good example of his decline in punching power. People point to that KO as evidence that Pacquiao had some other worldly power at that point but I disagree. For one, I think Hatton's chin was not especially strong. Plus Hatton took many full, clean hooks and no Pacquiao opponents since then were as available for those kinda shots (except Rios, who has a sturdy chin. His KO loss to Bradley was caused by body shots and Pac threw practically 0 of those on Rios).

Also, was he only on roids for Hatton? He landed plenty of punches on his other opponents during his career's height [2008-2012] and didn't put any of them cleanly away (ODLH corner stoppage, Cotto ref stoppage, Margarito went 12, Clottey went 12, Mosley went 12, Bradley went 12).

The Hatton KO is an anomaly in the bigger picture. Practically all his other knockouts were caused by an accumulation of punishment + well put together combos. Harder to get those kinds of knockouts if you are throwing fewer punches overall and aren't throwing combinations (look at the punch stats for his last few fights + how many combos did you notice him throw at Vargas?).

Pacquiao bludgeoned the 34-1 Miguel Cotto, which is the singular fight that immediately left most of the boxing world with a "WTF"-type feeling, before immediately no longer being that guy (which the timing seemed to line almost exactly with the request for both fighters to be blood tested).

Didn't pay for Pacquiao-Vargas, and literally have no interest in bothering to even see the fight, tbh. Last Pacquiao fight I saw was vs Mayweather, and Pacquiao let the world know who/what he was then.