RJJ vs. Hagler at 160lbs

[Elroy The Great]

Hagler could box too, and he wasn't slow either. Agreed that the Hagler Ray fought was seriously diminished.

hagler had skills. and im pretty sure he is older than he says.

[PivotandRoll]

but which fight was won because the guy took royds and he had no business winning ? can i at least get an unbiaased scientific link to support the royds guarantees a win in boxing ?

anything other than this request would be a waste of both of our times.

All the ones where the guy who one took roids.... Why else did they take them?

Your argument is that they didn't need to cheat? That's moronic. Roids help you train longer, heal faster. It improves you all around.

Your argument is a waste of time. Go back in time and tell Mosley he didn't need his balco products to beat Oscar....I'm sure he'll listen to you.....

[Ray Corso]

Jones fought 73 times to date with 20 bouts at middleweight.
He was fast and difficult to hit cleanly but was not at his best at 160!
You can't take his 50th bout at 175 and bring those experiences backward to 160!
When you have a pressure fighter against a mover the fight evaluations changed dramatically when the mover held the power to pick ring size.
This fantasy match is no different for me with ring dimensions helping and hurting the participants.

20ft and above is a huge advantage for Roy.
19ft and below for Hagler.

However I'll take Hagler over a not very experienced Jones at 160lbs.
As to "best ever" at 160 I doubt either is at the top of that list, top ten for Hagler for sure.

Ray

[Real King Kong]

imho, hagler would have reached rjj chin by the 8th. hagler would have needed a ko too.

Are you talking about the post hw move rjj chin? There was nothing to indicate he was chinny at mw.

[RightJabLikeZab]

Hagler loses 9-3. Outboxed badly.

[Elroy The Great]

All the ones where the guy who one took roids.... Why else did they take them?

Your argument is that they didn't need to cheat? That's moronic. Roids help you train longer, heal faster. It improves you all around.

Your argument is a waste of time. Go back in time and tell Mosley he didn't need his balco products to beat Oscar....I'm sure he'll listen to you.....

i was going to g on a long worded tangent but decided to spare you the ''tl/dr'' (but it appears i still did).

i instead sought out scientific links to support either of our povs. i googled ''boxers and steroids''...i found this ~
(the sites name is *'d out but heres a long assed snippet....)

''Boxing Insider: Now if you’re a fighter—let’s take this over to boxing for example—in your medical opinion, what specifically is taking testosterone going to help you do in the sport of boxing?

Dr. Ronald Kamm: It makes you stronger. You have faster recovery from injury. In a fight, if you were hit you might recover faster than if you weren’t on steroids. I think Khan was surprised that Peterson had the recuperative powers he did in their first fight. It also raises the boxer’s level of confidence, and his appetite for risk. That’s where it’s particularly scary, because it makes you more aggressive. Of course fighters are aggressive, but it’s supposed to be controlled aggression, which the referee tries to oversee and encourage. Then there’s aggressiveness to the point of going over the line. That is hitting the opponent low, or really continuing to hit an opponent when the ref’s trying to stop it, or right off the break.

Obviously the extreme would be Mike Tyson biting Holyfield’s ear. I’m not saying Tyson was using steroids, but his behavior that night would be compatible with “roid rage,” that kind of overreaction. So, really, fighters are in danger. You are taking your life in your hands when you go into the ring, and you are more or less hoping—or expecting—that, yes, the other fighter wants to win…but he’s not out to destroy you or your career. It’s like what’s going on with the NFL today with head injuries. You understand there’s a risk. You understand you’ll be tackled, but you’re hoping that the other guy doesn’t want to end your career.

But if you’re in there with somebody who’s hyped up on steroids, this guy won’t necessarily care about your career or anything else. Interestingly, when I looked at Peterson’s background, his father was in prison, the mother had personal issues— and of course, a lot of fighters do come from troubled backgrounds. But having a family history of emotional problems or a family history of drug use does put an individual at more risk for steroid use and abuse.''

nothing conclusive on royds guaranteeing a user victory. ''might, if, aggression.....'' meh

i mostly found boxing/sports sites giving their unqualified (no scientific links) opinions on the matter. i get the muscles and quicker healing but the success rate is shabby. fact, royds wont make a fighter win a fight he shouldnt have won.

by that i mean blowing out a guy whos never been blown out aby a guy who isnt known for blowing people out. example; if rjj brutalized tua had they fought. IF that had happened, i would join the ''royds are evil'' bandwagon.

lets get what royds DONT do out of the way....
they dont give a person skill.
they dont enhance a boxers reflexes.
they dont improve ones threshold of pain.
they dont guarantee victory.

if you have a better search engine or better search words, please send me the link.

[Elroy The Great]

Are you talking about the post hw move rjj chin? There was nothing to indicate he was chinny at mw.

correct me if im wrong, rjj didnt put his chin in harms way often at mw. when rjj fought hop, hop was ending those who were built to be ended so his ko % was inflated. hagler had real power and the pressure never stopped. certainly rjj could have out boxed hagler (which is what i think would have happened most of the fight). i also think hagler would have hurt rjj and eventually ended him.

just mho.

[robertzimmerman]

Can't say he was then IMO. He barely fought there even after he won the title

Again, he moved up to fight Toney in the same year he fought Tate. It was 1994, he was 25 at that point.

The MW version of Roy who fought Tate wasn't green.

That's the version of Roy I'd put into a fantasy fight against Marvin at MW.

He was a great fighter at 25.

I understand where you're coming from. Yes, he doesn't have lots of great wins at MW. But that didn't mean he wasn't a great fighter, that was just circumstances. He'd knocked out Malinga before he fought Tate. That was Roy at his peak.

[IMDAZED]

Again, he moved up to fight Toney in the same year he fought Tate. It was 1994, he was 25 at that point.

The MW version of Roy who fought Tate wasn't green.

That's the version of Roy I'd put into a fantasy fight against Marvin at MW.

He was a great fighter at 25.

I understand where you're coming from. Yes, he doesn't have lots of great wins at MW. But that didn't mean he wasn't a great fighter, that was just circumstances. He'd knocked out Malinga before he fought Tate. That was Roy at his peak.

He improved greatly after the Hopkins fight (so did Hopkins btw) and I think he elevated from there so I can't argue with ya.

[Real King Kong]

correct me if im wrong, rjj didnt put his chin in harms way often at mw. when rjj fought hop, hop was ending those who were built to be ended so his ko % was inflated. hagler had real power and the pressure never stopped. certainly rjj could have out boxed hagler (which is what i think would have happened most of the fight). i also think hagler would have hurt rjj and eventually ended him.

just mho.

Fair enough...but if rjj didn't mive up to hw and then come back down and all of the sudden have a khan chin, there would be no frame of reference to assume roy couldn't take haglers power is all I'm saying. Roy was a little green at mw, but hagler himself had some less than impressive performances. It would depend on what version of hagler showed up i guess, but I'd take the bigger, faster and more athletic rjj by decision.