Is Sugar Ray Robinson overrated?

[Sledgeweather17]

This is a ridiculous argument though, why haven't you included Marciano if those are your requirements for a 'best ever' basis. Furthermore, all of those guys did lose apart from Floyd and Ward (whose career is not over yet.) I assume that is because many of those fighters didn't lose until they were past their prime correct?

So consider this, 10 of Ray Robinsons losses came after he was 40 years old, 16 of them after his 3 year retirement after the Maxim fight, 18 of them after his 30th Birthday. So, before his 30th birthday Ray Robinson was 128-1. There is no possible way to compare that to today where fighters have 2-3 months a year to prepare for a single fight, and had 28 fights against Hall of Fame fighters.

Now I know the math doesn't exactly work this way but consider if Hopkins had fought maybe 100 times with the same success rate as he has now. He is 55-7, he would be 110-14, and so on and so forth.

Whether Ray Robinson is the best ever is a decent argument, Willie Pep deserves to be there as do many of the names you mentioned but there isn't even an argument that he is close to the top. It really isn't, bear in mind his most famous fights are the ones he had in his late 30's for the middleweight title. In his welterweight days he was imperious, running through opposition. And surely, you should maybe watch a full fight before even trying to pass judgement.

Dude don't be so petty. I just brought up a few names to make an example of the kind of fighter I'm talking about. If I didn't mention Marciano or whoever it is irrelevant because I wasn't making a list or soemthing.

You totally missed the point and failed to comprehend what you were reading. I mean Joe Frazer, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Lousi, John Jackson, Joe Calzaghe etc etc are all fighters I didn't mention, but you don't need to use a the whole bunch when you are making an example, you only need a sample.

[Cogitation7]

It's an opinion. Consensus is always BS anyway. It's basically saying you have a group of people who all say the same thing and if you dispute that, well, you must be an idiot. It's elitist crap and they alienate themselves and eventually become the minority due to their terrible attitudes. For me, Roberto Duran is the pound-for-pound best of all time and I don't care what any one else thinks. It's my opinion and they have theirs, but by you questioning Robinson or saying that he's not your number one, you'll catch no flack from me.

When it comes down to it, Robinson was a lot of fun to watch, with excellent speed and power in both hands. He also stayed very busy and had a very high tally of wins. It's hard to knock the guy either way you look at it and I certainly believe he's one of the best in the sport's history.

However, he did fight plenty of soft touches as anyone with 200 fights did. it couldn't be helped. I think those fights kept him sharp and there's nothing wrong with that. I wish more modern fighters would do the same. He also fought the best of his era and beat most of them. But his style was like anybody else's. It had certain flaws.

Robinson was an outside fighter for the most part. His best work came from a distance. When Basilio, LaMotta and Fullmer crowded him, they had a lot of success in the losses and of course their victories over the sugar man. I think most good inside fighters would give him plenty of trouble and the great inside fighters would beat him more often than not. I'm not sold that Hopkins would beat him as I think he would be too busy and sharp for Hopkins. And a younger Hopkins would run into his shots more which would give him the advantage. Hagler would have a shot but only if he got to land like he wanted to. Personally, I think Robinson would be too quick and would frustrate Hagler way too much. You have to ask yourself 'If Sugar Ray Leonard could beat him, could not Sugar Ray Robinson?' I can't answer that question any other way than Robinson would win. Hagler was bigger and stronger, but he could be outboxed as he was against Leonard and in my opinion, Duran as well.

I'm not sure how Robinson-Monzon would play out. I think it would be a close, chess match that wouldn't be much fun with Monzon possibly edging him on points but it could really go either way. I do see Julian Jackson getting a knockdown over him. Mike McCallum might be too much for him as well, but I don't know. McCallum often got frustrated too. James Toney would lose I believe. Roy Jones would bring all kinds of athleticism in for a fun scrap, but Robinson threw a lot and had accuracy. If he managed to clip Roy, it could be all over. I think he's too much for Pavlik and Taylor. From what I've seen of GGG, I have to give the edge to Robinson due to opposition, but this is too early IMO. When GGG does get big fights, we will see.

Robinson will always be highly regarded and rightly so. But never be afraid to say he was not the best. And I don't believe Ali was the best heavyweight either. I definitely favor Joe Louis if they ever met. However, I think Joe Louis-Joe Frazier would be so much more fun.

One of the best reads in this entire thread. Thank you

[Cogitation7]

for me Joe Louis is the GOAT.

He is the quintessential symbol of the ''All American Sport.''

While Hollywood and biased American media will have you think Baseball is what kept the American spirit alive pre and post WWI-WW2, Joe Louis went against the Third Reich. For me, during a time where black folk just had it bad (and before) and still today, represents the baddest man of this century. And it's through BOXING!!!!

Why doesn't Hollywood cover such great stories? Because they don't want you to believe that an African American BODY (Human) alone could fight the ''evil'' Third Reich aka ****'s. And what's even MORE beautiful of the story is that Max Schmeling wasn't even on the Third Reich's side and showed compassion to the American public, but HAUSER won't write stuff like that because of HIS general insecurities to black folk. piece of shlt. I hate that mofo..

instead let's just make another hashed out Schindler's list and make Liam Neeson the symbol and give an Oscar to Denzel for Training Day - the depiction Hollywood and BET backers just love to fund..

yeah that's why I stand by sig. They just mad because Floyd wasn't hood.

Man a Joe Louis movie would be epic a ****! But who would play him?

[DJ Enerate]

I don't know anything about basketball but if what you are seeing from Bryant or James, with your own eyes, surpasses what Jordan did, then you can surely be of the opinion that they are better, right? Especially if the statistics match up well too.

Fact is, a considerable chunk of Robinson's career and almost the entirety of Ali's is available on video. Heck, you can even find footage of Robinson from his amateur days. From what I've seen of fighters since, only Leonard stacks up in terms of aesthetically pleasing and all round quality. When you factor in the statistics, there really is no denying Robinson and Ali are the two greatest of all times.

Tut tut your boxing knowledge.

[Reloaded]

I don't know anything about basketball but if what you are seeing from Bryant or James, with your own eyes, surpasses what Jordan did, then you can surely be of the opinion that they are better, right? Especially if the statistics match up well too.

Fact is, a considerable chunk of Robinson's career and almost the entirety of Ali's is available on video. Heck, you can even find footage of Robinson from his amateur days. From what I've seen of fighters since, only Leonard stacks up in terms of aesthetically pleasing and all round quality. When you factor in the statistics, there really is no denying Robinson and Ali are the two greatest of all times.

Robinson fought over 100 bums , the videos of him dont impress me like one would think the supposed GOAT should look , I honestly think prime Roy Jones at MW would knock him out , I think Ray was the first to come along that was the beginning of the transition from the crude Jack Johnson styles into the modern era of skills and power , I think that transition started with Ray and he was a great fighter in his day that influenced so many greats from then on but I dont think he is the best fighter by a long shot .

A bit like Jessie Owens was a great runner but the modern greats blow him away , time does not stand still and mankind will improve on every thing in this world over time , that goes for fighting as well .

[DJ Enerate]

It's an opinion. Consensus is always BS anyway. It's basically saying you have a group of people who all say the same thing and if you dispute that, well, you must be an idiot. It's elitist crap and they alienate themselves and eventually become the minority due to their terrible attitudes. For me, Roberto Duran is the pound-for-pound best of all time and I don't care what any one else thinks. It's my opinion and they have theirs, but by you questioning Robinson or saying that he's not your number one, you'll catch no flack from me.

When it comes down to it, Robinson was a lot of fun to watch, with excellent speed and power in both hands. He also stayed very busy and had a very high tally of wins. It's hard to knock the guy either way you look at it and I certainly believe he's one of the best in the sport's history.

However, he did fight plenty of soft touches as anyone with 200 fights did. it couldn't be helped. I think those fights kept him sharp and there's nothing wrong with that. I wish more modern fighters would do the same. He also fought the best of his era and beat most of them. But his style was like anybody else's. It had certain flaws.

Robinson was an outside fighter for the most part. His best work came from a distance. When Basilio, LaMotta and Fullmer crowded him, they had a lot of success in the losses and of course their victories over the sugar man. I think most good inside fighters would give him plenty of trouble and the great inside fighters would beat him more often than not. I'm not sold that Hopkins would beat him as I think he would be too busy and sharp for Hopkins. And a younger Hopkins would run into his shots more which would give him the advantage. Hagler would have a shot but only if he got to land like he wanted to. Personally, I think Robinson would be too quick and would frustrate Hagler way too much. You have to ask yourself 'If Sugar Ray Leonard could beat him, could not Sugar Ray Robinson?' I can't answer that question any other way than Robinson would win. Hagler was bigger and stronger, but he could be outboxed as he was against Leonard and in my opinion, Duran as well.

I'm not sure how Robinson-Monzon would play out. I think it would be a close, chess match that wouldn't be much fun with Monzon possibly edging him on points but it could really go either way. I do see Julian Jackson getting a knockdown over him. Mike McCallum might be too much for him as well, but I don't know. McCallum often got frustrated too. James Toney would lose I believe. Roy Jones would bring all kinds of athleticism in for a fun scrap, but Robinson threw a lot and had accuracy. If he managed to clip Roy, it could be all over. I think he's too much for Pavlik and Taylor. From what I've seen of GGG, I have to give the edge to Robinson due to opposition, but this is too early IMO. When GGG does get big fights, we will see.

Robinson will always be highly regarded and rightly so. But never be afraid to say he was not the best. And I don't believe Ali was the best heavyweight either. I definitely favor Joe Louis if they ever met. However, I think Joe Louis-Joe Frazier would be so much more fun.

Outstanding post.

Roberto Duran is the best fighter we have extensive footage of. He's the most complete fighter/boxer on film. His skill levels were phenomenal. It's the reason he could fight way past prime and even out of shape against much bigger greats like Hagler. Yes he had a great chin, yes he had hands of stone, but the reason he could compete way past prime against much bigger men was because of his offensive and especially defensive skills, and also the way he blended them both together seamlessly .

A technical marvel if there ever was one

[stuff jones]

A bit like Jessie Owens was a great runner but the modern greats blow him away , time does not stand still and mankind will improve on every thing in this world over time , that goes for fighting as well .

This is wrong. Had Jesse Owens run on a modern rubber track instead of the old clay tracks he would have just as fast as the best modern sprinters.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_better_stronger?language=en

Surely you know enough about evolution to know that animals can't evolve significantly over only two or three generations.

[Reloaded]

This is wrong. Had Jesse Owens run on a modern rubber track instead of the old clay tracks he would have just as fast as the best modern sprinters.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_better_stronger?language=en

Surely you know enough about evolution to know that animals can't evolve significantly over only two or three generations.

Not so because that is estimating the improvement to modern training and that swaps out actual for maybe , in these debates you should only go on actual times and what they did on face value not estimated face value , if you really wanted to analyze this you would need to take all the tapes of Ray and measure things like speed of punch over the distance thrown and measure it over every round of the entire fight , there are so many variables from footwork to timing and hand speed and also reaction time that could all be scientifically measured from video footage revealing lots of information , our eye test truth be told is not very accurate .

As far as your comment on evolution I dont agree with it in a controlled environment , selective breeding can develop a super breed in a very short time , man has successfully done it with livestock and performance animals , in nature genetic change moves extremely slowly as you say , with selective breeding for highly specialised traits man can make it happen in less than 10 yrs if you have the numbers of brood stock to work with to isolate and concentrate the cream of the crop and also the knowledge to make the correct selections , this doesnt happen in nature .

With racehorses and greyhounds they have improved the natural speed over the breeds by as much as 20% from 50 yrs ago I cant entertain the idea that this athletic improvement in animals leaves out man all together .

The end of the line with athletes be it man or beast is flesh and bone , it can only go so fast or be so strong , man cannot go beyond its own physics and tensile strength of the raw materials , as an exaggeration a man cannot run 70mph without blowing his tendons and ligaments to smithereens .

[soul_survivor]

Robinson fought over 100 bums , the videos of him dont impress me like one would think the supposed GOAT should look , I honestly think prime Roy Jones at MW would knock him out , I think Ray was the first to come along that was the beginning of the transition from the crude Jack Johnson styles into the modern era of skills and power , I think that transition started with Ray and he was a great fighter in his day that influenced so many greats from then on but I dont think he is the best fighter by a long shot .

A bit like Jessie Owens was a great runner but the modern greats blow him away , time does not stand still and mankind will improve on every thing in this world over time , that goes for fighting as well .

Athletics and boxing are not a good comparison.

Keeping to boxing, you are telling me that a guy who could KO you with both hands, box on the front and back foot and take hellacious shots and still not be KOd...having seen all that you're telling me you were not impressed?

[Reloaded]

Athletics and boxing are not a good comparison.

Keeping to boxing, you are telling me that a guy who could KO you with both hands, box on the front and back foot and take hellacious shots and still not be KOd...having seen all that you're telling me you were not impressed?

Its all relative and it all has cross over segments , we find answers to things by broadening the criteria in what we are looking at because it sheds more light on what it is you are really looking at .

Roy Jones impressed me more , Ray Leonard impressed me more , the power and explosive nature of Tommy Hearns impressed me more , the ruggedness of Duran impressed me more , and they did that because they fought I think much better opponents than Robinson ever faced , I believe its tougher today to make it to the very top because they really are formula 1 fighters punching faster and harder with better conditioning , they were tough durable guys back in those days where the modern era is just so explosive and power laden .