Waddell investment down to the last 82M? OUT of (521M)

[Pigeons]

Last year there were only 16 events on HBO + 3 PPVs. Do you think there will be more or less than 16 events this year on HBO?

Hard to say, but probably about the same. Through the first 1/3 of the year they have only 4 cards scheduled (Kovalev-Pascal II, Crawford-Lundy, Ortiz-Dimitrenko, Pacquiao-Bradley III PPV).

Two pointless rematches with overwhelming favorites and two mismatches.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I've been reading the thread and it seems like some boxing fans want PBC to fail. I don't understand how the US boxing industry could survive with only HBO.

HBO Boxing seems so small I guess.

Hbo traditionally has the "marquee" big names.. Oscar, morales, manny, floyd, tyson..


Showtime is 2nd place traditionally signing away a top guy here and there-tyson, chavez, floyd.. Also did a great job 10-15 years ago of developing talent in showbox and highlighting divisions hbo was entrenched in like 135 with corrales, castillo, Freitas, etc or 168 with froch, calzaghe, lacy, etc..
They also focused a lot on international guys like froch, hatton, tszyu..
But showtime went downhill once they got hooked up with Espinoza and haymon.. Shobox sucks now, nearly all mismatches, and they have focused solely on Haymon's stable, which opened the door for hbo to grab some international stars like Golovkin, kovolev, etc.. 15 years ago kovalev and GGG would have been on showtime alongside hatton n calzaghe

Regular TV fights before pbc, where usually crap mismatches, with unknown prospects fighting some bum...

[PKing]

I wonder when the purses will cut down and how the boxers themselves will deal with such a situation. After growing comfortable with being paid millions for fighting mid to below average competition, how would they deal with being paid less for harder fights?

That was my main question from the get go of the PBC brand.

If they don't have a choice, it'd seem like either they can fight or someone else will take their place?

[PKing]

Hard to say, but probably about the same. Through the first 1/3 of the year they have only 4 cards scheduled (Kovalev-Pascal II, Crawford-Lundy, Ortiz-Dimitrenko, Pacquiao-Bradley III PPV).

Two pointless rematches with overwhelming favorites and two mismatches.

The Pacquiao-Bradley fight is PPV so that wouldn't be an HBO fight. I just don't get how some people think HBO can support all the US fighters with their limited dates and small budget. There are too many fighters it seems.

[original zero]

Let's continue to expose the flaws in Dunny's logic shall we . . .

Because UFC once aired on Spike and because PBC has aired on Spike, a simple minded fellow like Dunny believes the most logical thing is to compare Spike vs Spike.

Why is this illogical? Because Spike was UFC's most prominent broadcasting partner while Spike is PBC's 5th or 6th most prominent broadcasting partner. If we're looking at UFC's most successful program, wouldn't it make the most sense to compare it to PBC's most successful program instead of their 5th or 6th tier network? Of course. But Dunny thinks he can fool you guys with his amateur attempt at slick double talk.

But what's even better is that even if you wanted to compare the same network against the same network, would the most logical thing be to compare Spike vs Spike when UFC was already off of Spike years before PBC existed? Or would the most logical thing be to compare UFC & PBC on FOX in back to back weeks?!?

OF COURSE the most logical thing would be to compare the ratings from the same network ONE WEEK APART *this year* instead of YEARS APART, YEARS AGO. But Dunny thinks he can fool you guys with his amateur attempt at slick double talk.

PBC & UFC ratings on FOX in January were *virtually identical*. Now Dunny claims that FOX overpaid for UFC. Let's even say that's true. Unless Dunny believes that UFC's next TV deal will be for $20 million (80% decrease), there is no reason to believe PBC won't land a deal that pays more than what HBO was paying Haymon.

When confronted with this fact, Dunny refused to comment. Suddenly the guy that never shuts up, even when he has no idea what he's talking, was speechless. Because deep down he knows he's in checkmate. No matter how you spin it, all Haymon has to do is land a deal that pays more than HBO was paying him.

And networks spend SO MUCH MORE for sports than what HBO spends, that it is a virtual guarantee that PBC will land a better deal than what Haymon had with HBO previously.

The problem here is that Dunny is so small minded, complex concepts or long term planning go right over his head. He's baffled by why PBC has less events now than last year.

Last year, PBC flooded the market with events to get their name out there as quickly and as broadly as possible. They also locked up every TV deal they could. If they didn't agree to the FS1 events, FS1 would have struck a deal with someone else. If they didn't agree to the Spike events, Spike would have struck a deal with someone else.

These were networks that were going to do boxing either way and Haymon made sure to box everybody else out. There was never a need for Haymon to run weekly events, but he had to run enough to keep others off these networks. Same thing with ESPN. Haymon doesn't need ESPN, but if he doesn't make the ESPN deal, ESPN would have made a deal with someone else.

Like Haymon has always done, he's outsmarted everybody every step of the way. Dangling big money to these networks, promising to pay dollar X per event, but having NO OBLIGATION to run all of those events and getting the exclusive on the network regardless. If Haymon never runs ESPN again, he still kept everybody else off the network. If he never runs Spike again, he still kept everybody else off the network.

And he will run on those channels again, but the point is that there was a reason he had to run so many events at first and doesn't need to now.

Dunny then references "stories they running out of money" [sic]. Stories with no basis in reality. Just fanboy fantasy speculation. He then lies and says ratings are trending downward, even though PBC just did their biggest rating since April.

Hmmmm . . . let's think about that. January 2016 was the biggest rating since April 2015. If the ratings are trending down, how is that possible? How can PBC score their highest rating of the last 9 months if the ratings are going down?

How can PBC have just scored their second best quarter hour rating ever if the ratings are going down?

The truth is that PBC ratings started high for the debut, like most new TV shows, started to stabilize, like most new TV shows, and now the ratings are shooting back up.

Dunny offers no explanation though for why the ratings are shooting back up. He also offers no explanation for why, out of all of the networks out there, one of them wouldn't bite on PBC if it's doing the same ratings as UFC and UFC's deal is $100 million a year.

That's because his argument has no basis in reality. He says PBC's ratings are terrible (then lies about it), says FOX made a terrible deal with UFC, etc. According to Dunny, everything is terrible. Everybody is doing terribly.

But last I checked, any live sport that can generate millions of viewers manages to land a TV deal. Yet Dunny lives in some fantasy world where FOX pays $100 million for one rating, but NOBODY will pay even a fraction of that for the same rating.

How strange.

I know this thread is long and I know Dunny is throwing around a lot of numbers, but when you analyze what he's saying, it's very clear that he's trying to fool the community. The facts do not support his premise. UFC & PBC were on FOX, back to back, and did the same rating.

PBC will land a TV deal. That is guaranteed.

How big of a deal it lands is anyone's guess, but as long as it's more than what HBO was giving Haymon, this was a smart move.

[bballchump11]

Some of you guys aren't factoring simple, but extremely important things like the time-slot of the fights and the actual matchups themselves. The UFC always puts on recognizable names in tough matchups for their main and co main events. The PBC has had Omar Figeuora vs DeMarco and Wilder vs Duhaupas on NBC primetime. It'd be silly to try and compare that to UFC 17 which had Anjos vs. Cerrone 2 as the main event and Ovreem vs Dos Santos as the co main event. UFC 17 had 2.8 million viewers btw.

Then comparing the old UFC fights on Spike to PBC fights on Spike is also useless. Those old cards on Spike were on Saturday nights, while the PBC cards are on Friday night. Boxing events don't generate as many views on Friday nights. For more perspective consider this

The Andre Berto vs Josesito Lopez fight on Spike’s debut broadcast of “Premier Boxing Champions” delivered 1 million viewers (10:45pm-11:15pm et). The Spike telecast of the entire card averaged 869,000 viewers, making it the most watched boxing event on Friday nights in eight years (ESPN2, Bundrage/Smith, 1/12/07). Spike’s PBC telecast more than doubled ESPN2’s average for boxing on Fridays in 2014 (403,000 viewers). Highlights of the three televised fights have been viewed over 1.5 million times between PBC Facebook and Twitter

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/...7-ratings-info

The biggest reasons for the decline in viewers is
1. The ratings are starting to stabilize and the novelty is wearing off
2. The matchups haven't been as good for the most recognizable fighters

It would just make perfect sense the Leo Santa Cruz vs Mares would perform better than Garcia vs Malignaggi and Thurman vs Collazo on ESPN.

[PKing]

What happens if Haymon fails with PBC and is only able to negotiate a $200k license fee average for his events in 2018?

What would that do to boxing?

[HeroBando]

Some of you guys aren't factoring simple, but extremely important things like the time-slot of the fights and the actual matchups themselves. The UFC always puts on recognizable names in tough matchups for their main and co main events. The PBC has had Omar Figeuora vs DeMarco and Wilder vs Duhaupas on NBC primetime. It'd be silly to try and compare that to UFC 17 which had Anjos vs. Cerrone 2 as the main event and Ovreem vs Dos Santos as the co main event. UFC 17 had 2.8 million viewers btw.

Then comparing the old UFC fights on Spike to PBC fights on Spike is also useless. Those old cards on Spike were on Saturday nights, while the PBC cards are on Friday night. Boxing events don't generate as many views on Friday nights. For more perspective consider this
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/...7-ratings-info

The biggest reasons for the decline in viewers is
1. The ratings are starting to stabilize and the novelty is wearing off
2. The matchups haven't been as good for the most recognizable fighters

It would just make perfect sense the Leo Santa Cruz vs Mares would perform better than Garcia vs Malignaggi and Thurman vs Collazo on ESPN.

Interesting comparison in that article. Spike got 2x+ the Fnf ratings for almost 2m in purse, some 50x the Fnf cost. Then they cut the purses in half, and got Fnf ratings. Some good fight though, hope for more, but if I was working for Spike I'd say lets do more Cops reruns when these guys stop buying TV time

[Sugar Adam Ali]

What happens if Haymon fails with PBC and is only able to negotiate a $200k license fee average for his events in 2018?

What would that do to boxing?

Swing the pendulum back to the status quo- hbo, showtime, arum, sanctioning bodies

[Deevel916]

Thanks to PBC many of the top fighters want mega million dollar pay days for average fights resulting in many fights not being made. Look at Quillen. He wants may/pac money to fight GGG.