Redefined Greatest Heavyweight Ever List

[soul_survivor]

I think Holyfield should be ahead of Foreman.

interesting thought, why do you think that?

This is my head to head greatest heavyweights list.

1. Muhammmad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. George Foreman
4. Larry Holmes
5. Jack Johnson
6. Sonny Liston
7. Joe Frazier
8. Mike Tyson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Lennox Lewis

my list wasnt h2h altho that had a part to play but you make a good list, name that sticks out is jack johnson, why is he so high?

[kiDynamite92]

interesting thought, why do you think that?



my list wasnt h2h altho that had a part to play but you make a good list, name that sticks out is jack johnson, why is he so high?

Always thought he was a good boxer, he was really slick and great on the defence and countering. It would take a real skilled tactician to beat him like Holmes or Louis or Ali and I can't see anyone else doing it. In his prime George Foreman could only be defeated by Ali, Louis and maybe Holmes but probably not. I don't think Johnson could beat him so I have him higher.

[LacedUp]

Always thought he was a good boxer, he was really slick and great on the defence and countering. It would take a real skilled tactician to beat him like Holmes or Louis or Ali and I can't see anyone else doing it. In his prime George Foreman could only be defeated by Ali, Louis and maybe Holmes but probably not. I don't think Johnson could beat him so I have him higher.

Also, Johnson has a great resume.

[Elroy1]

Also, Johnson has a great resume.

I dare anybody sceptical to look up Jack Johnson's resume and delve into who his opponents were

[soul_survivor]

Sonny Liston

So, in choosing which write up to first post here, I thought I'd go with the man who was one of the most enigmatic fighters to ever hold the heavyweight crown, as well as one of the most feared. I present Sonny Listion.

Heavyweight Enigma

The life and death of Sonny Liston are crowded in mystery and myth, when was he born? Was it really 1932 in Arkansas or 1928 or somewhere in between or earlier or later? There are no birth records for the brutal champion, he could have been anybody and anytime, anywhere. His death is just as much a puzzle, he was found dead by his wife and may have been in that state for a week or more. Did he overdose? Was something or someone else involved? We may never know, he died as he was born, covered in a shroud of distrust.

But it's his boxing career I want to look at. There was a time when Liston was regarded as the most feared heavyweight on the planet. However, what people tend to overlook is the fact that he was a very good amateur heavyweight with a solid bedrock of boxing skills. He beat the likes of Julius Griffin and Ed Sanders, leading amateurs on the American scene.

Sadly the amateur career never lead to an Olympic games but it didn't matter, Liston turned professional in 1953 with a blistering knockout. It wouldn't all be plain sailing though, as he was often taken the distance and lose a split decision to journeyman Marty Marshall. But the talent was there and his jab, thrown with that fearsome left hand was an offensive tool.

As time progressed, Liston would beat Marshall in a rematch and go on various KO streaks, stopping guys in brutal fashion, his jab, his left hook and his booming right were all immensely powerful. Eventually the division was waking up to Liston and a win over mike DeJohn propelled Liston into the biggest fight of his career thus far, against perennial heavyweight hopeful, Clevelan Williams.

Williams towered over Liston but he was stopped within 3 rounds. Liston's superior reach had been effective, managing to create adequate space and then pummeling Williams with left hooks and straight rights. It wasn't all easy going, as Williams managed to bloody Liston a bit but even Big Cat couldn't withstand the assault.

By the end of the decade, it was pretty obvious that Liston was the best heavyweight not named Floyd Patterson but the fight was difficult to make, even the then President of the USA got involved, citing Liston's ties to organised crime. But Liston would not be stopped, he annihilated Williams in a rematch and won 4 of his next 5 fights by stoppage. This included names like Zora Folley, one of the most highly regarded heavies on the planet.

It wasn't just that Liston was winning and beating the top contenders of the day, it was how he was doing it. He effectively cleared out the division and finally, government or no government, there was nowhere for Patterson, the youngest champion ever, to run.

The Ring magazine once described Liston as a slow but heavy handed hitter, their exact words being "...the fists move with the languor of motoring royalty or as if passing through a gaseous envelope more dense than air." But for all his lack of speed, Liston could hit hard and he could cut the ring off, which worked perfectly against the quicker Patterson. He had nowhere to go, he couldn't move out of the way of the bombs that Liston was dropping that night. He was a favourite that night and rightfully so but what he did to Patterson shocked the boxing world and lead to an immediate rematch. The same result followed.

Having spent 3 years clearing out the division, Liston could finally lay claim to the heavyweight crown. Sadly, we all know what followed, two drubbings at the hands of Muhammad Ali and the slow decline into irrelevance. Having said that, we should not forget when Liston ruled the world, he did it the hard way, having to fight almost every relevant challenger of the 50s and the early 60s but even that wasn't enough. He knew that the only way to earn a title shot in front of an audience that was often repulsed by him, he would have to win impressively. The destruction of the division that followed was and still is thrilling to watch. There's a reason why Ali, an accomplished amateur with a decent pro record was thought to be too insignificant. In fact, those losses are so difficult to digest that many modern fans still believe the fights were a fix. How could the devil be beaten by a skinny kid from Louisville?

In terms of my list, Liston is ranked 10th because he was a proven ATG, many point at his record and only see Patterson and Ali but they don't see Williams, Folley, Harris and Valdes. Top contenders who Liston made look like children. He fought one top contender after another, biding time for his title shot and when he got it, he was declared the best without a shadow of a doubt. It took the greatest heavyweight ever to dethrone him and that speaks volumes.

Opponents, championships, skill set and entertainment value were all factors and I think the above does a decent job of describing that, who doesn't love a good a great KO artist. But relevance in the division and impact on the history of the sport are also important and Liston is one of the most important champions ever. In his prime, maybe only Dempsey was more feared in the pre-Foreman/Tyson age. Liston was champion when being heavyweight king meant you were the biggest name in the sport. Those are all factors we have to consider when making objective lists of the great names in any sport.

[soul_survivor]

[MisterHardtop]

That is an interesting but rather well made list. There's some names that I would have at different positions and in terms of Byrd, I would have Norton replace him but other than that, all the names that are needed are present.

Your piece on Liston is well written and obviously well researched. There is no doubt about Liston's place among the all time legends of our sport, however the Ali era started and the man who would rule for a thousand years was pushed aside. Ali didn't just beat Liston, he humiliated him and took his soul.

[soul_survivor]

Thanks MHT and yeah, Norton was close to being in my top 20, his win over Ali is great but that's offset but many off nights and never truly winning the heavyweight crown.

[clipniki]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Larry Holmes
5. Joe Louis
6. Joe Frazier
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Mike Tyson
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Sonny Liston
11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Gene Tunney
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Vitali Klitschko
16. Jack Johnson
17. Michael Spinks
18. Jersey Joe Walcot
19. Rid**** Bowe
20. Chris Byrd

[clipniki]

Best for forever....

BEST FOR FOREVER....

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Larry Holmes
5. Joe Louis
6. Joe Frazier
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Mike Tyson
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Sonny Liston
11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Gene Tunney
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Vitali Klitschko
16. Jack Johnson
17. Michael Spinks
18. Jersey Joe Walcot
19. Rid**** Bowe
20. Chris Byrd