Not Only Does Mike Tyson Not Belong As A Top Ten HW, He's Not Even Close

[Elroy1]

I don't know about Holyfield in the top ten all time at HW.

He's more of a P4P great fighter.

I think Holy loses to many HWs of the past, including the ones he "beat" Foreman and Holmes. Look at his HW career in which he was bested by Bowe and Lewis....he was never the man or dominate. We seem to love the guy because of his warrior spirit and the way he reinvented himself over and over again.

Also getting back to Tyson and Holyfield....I think both lose to each other at a certain time in their careers. Tyson beats Holyfield anywhere before 89 and Holy after that. Holy needed that physical strength he developed later by lifting weights with Lee Haney to hold off Tyson on the inside...

I often thought similarly about the complementary periods of Tyson and Holyfield beating each other.

However I think both Holyfield and Tyson beat every boxer who ever came before them without much doubt at all.

If you analyse Ali's fights properly he really deserves about 10 losses as well making his record comparable to Holyfield's in reality.

Except Holyifeld never lost to a bum.

Except Holyfield never lost to a green.

Except Holyifeld never lost to a CW.

Except Holyfield was never knocked down or stopped by anything less than a monstrous opponent.

And most importantly, Holyfield's opposition was about 10x better and stronger than Ali faced.

As for Foreman and Holmes? Their younger, more athletic versions were also much lighter (Holmes was smaller than Holyfield and Foreman only 5lbs heavier!) And far less experienced (Foreman was dropped by featherfists Ali and Young and went even matched with pure slugger Lyle) who were nothing compared with Holyfield. And Holmes struggled badly with C level champs like Witherspoon and Norton and got pasted by bums like Shaver's. **** a primish Holmes lost 2ce to Spinks who would be a sparring partner for Holyfield!

Holyfield was better than all that came before. Holyfield's own words!

[LacedUp]

Simply not true!

Nobody OWNED a television back in those days to even watch Dempsey.

Nobody outside of boxing would PAY to fall asleep watching Ali run around barely even fighting for 15 rounds and rarely ever really score a proper knockdown.

You can't compare these 2 cans to Tyson!

What we know is that nobody INSIDE boxing, would pay to watch Wlad clinch, hold and lean his way to boring wins over overmatched opponents.

[Elroy1]

What we know is that nobody INSIDE boxing, would pay to watch Wlad clinch, hold and lean his way to boring wins over overmatched opponents.

Yes yes there's that too haha

But atleast Wlad usually got the knockout didn't he and atleast Wlad dominated his opponents.

And what was the average weight of an Ali opponent again? 200lbs CW. And Wlad's? 235lbs.

And what sort of record did Ali's opponents have again on average? BUM records. And Wlad's? Unbeaten and nearly unbeaten.

Case closed

But let's keep this on topic. Tyson right. I venture this Laced Up..

I think if Tyson fought Muhammad Ali.. For real.. He would have caught the running man Ali within 3 rounds and badly and easily knocked him out without any real damage whatsoever.

Something in the spirit of Tyson vs Ratliff was..

What do you have to say to that?

[LacedUp]

Yes yes there's that too haha

But atleast Wlad usually got the knockout didn't he and atleast Wlad dominated his opponents.

And what was the average weight of an Ali opponent again? 200lbs CW. And Wlad's? 235lbs.

And what sort of record did Ali's opponents have again on average? BUM records. And Wlad's? Unbeaten and nearly unbeaten.

Case closed

But let's keep this on topic. Tyson right. I venture this Laced Up..

I think if Tyson fought Muhammad Ali.. For real.. He would have caught the running man Ali within 3 rounds and badly and easily knocked him out without any real damage whatsoever.

Something in the spirit of Tyson vs Ratliff was..

What do you have to say to that?

Ali > Wlad in every way. Resume, skills, entertainment, personality - whatever you choose. That's case closed.

Hmm... Not sure. I don't know what would happen in that fight. As with most tyson fantasy fights, if Ali (who did have a tremendous chin), went past 4-5 rounds, I would heavily favour him.

[Elroy1]

Ali > Wlad in every way. Resume, skills, entertainment, personality - whatever you choose. That's case closed.

Hmm... Not sure. I don't know what would happen in that fight. As with most tyson fantasy fights, if Ali (who did have a tremendous chin), went past 4-5 rounds, I would heavily favour him.

Wladimir would never be ALLOWED to face opponents as bad as Ali's. I half of them would have even been "illegal" under the current rules of boxing and most of the others had records so bad they wouldn't have a ranking high enough to even dream of Wlad.

And so your saying that Tyson who is more skilled, faster, more powerful, more defensive/aggressive, better chin, everything than Ali, an opponent like none again he ever faced, could not outbox Ali? HA.

And Ali never wore a punch in his entire career like Tysons let alone in combination. You cant rate his chin as good against that calibre of opponent.

Assuming Ali could last half the fight is laughable in itself.

Watch Tyson Ratliff. That's ya Muhammad Ali!

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE]

I think you misunderstood me a little bit. I'm just saying, I don't think I've ever seen prime tyson crumble. You can say what you want about him, but he took his beatings like a man. He certainly didn't coward out. He took some severe beatings against Douglas, Lewis and some of the later fights in his career, and to some extent Holyfield one as well. He could have quit at any moment, but he took his beatings. He did bite Holyfield's ear, but that was more frustration than anything else - I certainly wouldn't call it cowardice. Mind you, Holyfield also bit someone once. It can happen to anyone.

That's exactly what it was, a cowardly act and it amazes me that you would defend such a low act in the ring like that. The reason Tyson bit Holyfield, was because he couldn't beat him. This idea that Tyson fans say about Holyfield using his head and fighting dirty is a complete joke. Tyson was one of the most dirty fighters ever. I saw him try and break Frans Botha's arm, hit many fighters after the bell, fight them in the press conference and of course the famous Tyson elbows.

Holyfield was the first fighter to really bully the bully. He wasn't taking any of that **** from Tyson and pushed back. When Tyson realized he couldn't win, he looked for a way out and he bit him. It was the definition of a cowardly act.

I agree about the part about him coming through at the perfect time for sure, but he still faced some good opposition who gave him some good fights and he did achieve some things no one else did.

Sorry but the 80's and early 90's were not a good time for HW. The talent was marginal at best. He unified the title by beating Pinkland Thomas, Trevor Berbick and Tony Tubbs if I'm not mistaken. Not really legendary names when you compare the HW division to previous decades.

I agree it's his own fault, but it's just reasoning. I still don't think there's any question that Tyson was undoubtedly the more talented fighter. I really can't see how anyone could dispute that.

You cannot clearly say that and you severely underestimate Holyfields ability to fight. Tyson may have been better schooled in terms of head movement, and the Cus Demato style, but Holyfield was a great inside fighter and his resume is better than Tysons. His wars with Bowe alone show the heart that beats in that mans chest. Holyfield IMO was twice the fighter that Tyson was, and it's not even close. You had to kill Holyfield to beat him, and his chin was iron.

Also, he's undoubtedly a top 20 heavyweight. Anything else would be criminal. I think you'd be hard pressed not to include him in the top 15 as well, whether you think he's overrated or not. He did achieve some pretty incredible things.

Again, I loved watching Tyson even though I was never a fan of his. He was one of the most devastating punchers ever, but that doesn't mean he was top 10. His opposition was marginal at best, he folded in the biggest fights of his career, he was undisciplined and was suffered the worst upset in the history of boxing. Tyson IMO was a about 14-15th on my list of all time HW's last time I made a list.

[B-Bomber]

[QUOTE=Cuauhtémoc1520;14851663]

That's exactly what it was, a cowardly act and it amazes me that you would defend such a low act in the ring like that. The reason Tyson bit Holyfield, was because he couldn't beat him. This idea that Tyson fans say about Holyfield using his head and fighting dirty is a complete joke. Tyson was one of the most dirty fighters ever. I saw him try and break Frans Botha's arm, hit many fighters after the bell, fight them in the press conference and of course the famous Tyson elbows.

Holyfield was the first fighter to really bully the bully. He wasn't taking any of that **** from Tyson and pushed back. When Tyson realized he couldn't win, he looked for a way out and he bit him. It was the definition of a cowardly act.



Sorry but the 80's and early 90's were not a good time for HW. The talent was marginal at best. He unified the title by beating Pinkland Thomas, Trevor Berbick and Tony Tubbs if I'm not mistaken. Not really legendary names when you compare the HW division to previous decades.



You cannot clearly say that and you severely underestimate Holyfields ability to fight. Tyson may have been better schooled in terms of head movement, and the Cus Demato style, but Holyfield was a great inside fighter and his resume is better than Tysons. His wars with Bowe alone show the heart that beats in that mans chest. Holyfield IMO was twice the fighter that Tyson was, and it's not even close. You had to kill Holyfield to beat him, and his chin was iron.



Again, I loved watching Tyson even though I was never a fan of his. He was one of the most devastating punchers ever, but that doesn't mean he was top 10. His opposition was marginal at best, he folded in the biggest fights of his career, he was undisciplined and was suffered the worst upset in the history of boxing. Tyson IMO was a about 14-15th on my list of all time HW's last time I made a list.

I agree , it was Iron Mike's way to quit .

14th or 15th in an ATG list is a very good ranking , I don't argue with that either.

What I disagree with is your analysis of Tyson as a fighter. In the early stages of his carreer he wasn't only a bully with a big punch .

Head and upper body movements, feints , bob and weave , combination punching , choice of punches , speed, balance, discipline and work ethics.

I think Cus D'Amato did a great job with young Tyson, even with his personality. If I remember he was not aggressive at all. He was a polite guy , shy even. I remember a TV show in which he was almost scared to sit next to Ali and ...i think it was SRR? ...not sure.

However, the Iron Mike persona was created later , gradually. After going to jail though Tyson was pretty much the fighter you described: undisciplined, dirty , relying on his power which in my opinion wasn't even so amazing without speed and superbe conditioning.

[Sweet Pea 50]

I think people bring up good points about Tysons power.

Now, while it was very good, it was his hand speed and combination punching combined with the power that was the deal.

His decline was when he "lost" that, and relied, to me, almost exclusively on his power.

It could have because of competition, age, or decline from various things.

But the young Iron Mike was electric. He'd rip a two hooks to the body, throw one up stairs, get tagged, and set up again. Quick. And that was your ass, Mr. Postman.

Low center of gravity, and I think great core strength. The man had some pretty solid wheels underneath him as well.

Tyson was a physically very powerful man, that got taught early by a master that saw what his gifts were.

Could have a best Tyson beat the best Lewis?

Probably not.

And I'm good with that.

I think Lewis is one of the greatest HW's of all time.

I never had that limey fuck's video game. Doe.

[SweetScience]

Tyson declined when he stopped jabbing to set up his deadly arensal of punches.

The first Bruno fight was the beginning of his fall...

[521CEO]

I honestly feel we never got to see the best of Mike, when Cus died Mike was still learning the science and was still a raw talent. After Cus died Mike should have never left Kevin Rooney cause when he joined Don King that was the beginning of the end. Never have I ever seen a "PROMOTER" control every aspect of a fighters life from business to personal, I feel as though Don King robbed us of one the great talents in boxing history. The most important thing for a boxer to have is focus, and clearly Mike wasn't focused when he was with King. Say what you want about Mike but he was an exceptional talent and I really don't see a problem with him being on a top 10 hw list, but I can also see why people wouldn't have him on there list.