So Vitali leading a revolution in Ukraine!

[Weltschmerz]

[Gojira]

[Citizen Koba]

Greece' problems are much more deep seated than it's relationship with the EU. The culture of tax avoidance is evidence of that.

Clearly there were other factors at work, but Spain, southern Italy, Ireland - the peripheral states of the EU seem to have suffered far more severe hardship than the industrial heartland. In addition of course adherence to the common currency denied these countries the use of intrest rate adjustments to stimulate their economies.

Quite aside from which Ukraine has a good tradition of Governmental corruption of its own - Tymoshenko, of course in the previous government that was 'pro Europe' herself having been imprisoned for corruption.

Ukraine has abundant natural resources and rich agricultural land, but little in the way of manufacturing capacity and high value exports. It's likely role in the EU will be as an exporter of relatively cheap food and mineral wealth and an importer and market for the more valuable European manufactured goods.

It's a great prize for both the EU and the Customs Union, furthermore (and this is one reason for Russian concerns -) current trade agreements with Russia would potentially open up the huge Russian market to an influx of European manufactured goods, potentially undermining the Russian economy.

As I say, I can't say for sure what is in the best long term interests of the Ukranian people, but they would be wise to be sceptical of the vision of a 'Western European' Ukraine in which Vitali appears to believe.

[techliam]

In this case it's probably best described as political power struggle with outside forces supporting and funding both sides in order to further selfish economic interests. A proxy economic war is not a terrible way of describing it.

God forbid it becomes an actual civil war.

The protesters on the strets have a diverse array of concerns, aims and agendas, those supporting and funding them (and those supporting the government) are clearer in their goals IMO.

Hmm economic proxy war...perhaps it is a proxy war in the post-cold war sense (my earlier assumption was that of traditional proxy wars). During the Cold War, much of the international relations issues were political and social...i.e socialism vs capitalism (amongst many other things), yet the collapse of the Soviet bloc changed our conflicts into dominantly economic ones- perhaps a result of mass globalisation. I think it's a good argument, that it may become a proxy war in the post-cold war sense... i.e your 'economic proxy war'.

I read an article by the economist which included ideas of separation/or devolution of powers to try solve the issue of East Ukraine vs West Ukraine...I can't imagine a long-term effective compromise...

...I forgot this is a boxing forum.

[Ryn0]

Clearly there were other factors at work, but Spain, southern Italy, Ireland - the peripheral states of the EU seem to have suffered far more severe hardship than the industrial heartland. Quite aside from which Ukraine has a good tradition of Governmental corruption of its own - Tymoshenko, of course in the previous government that was 'pro Europe' herself having been imprisoned for corruption.

Ukraine has abundant natural resources and rich agricultural land, but little in the way of manufacturing capacity and high value exports. It's likely role in the EU will be as an exporter of relatively cheap food and mineral wealth and an importer and market for the more valuable European manufactured goods.

It's a great prize for both the EU and the Customs Union, furthermore (and this is one reason for Russian concerns -) current trade agreements with Russia would potentially open up the huge Russian market to an influx of European manufactured goods, potentially undermining the Russian economy.

As I say, I can't say for sure what is in the best long term interests of the Ukranian people, but they would be wise to be sceptical of the vision of a 'Western European' Ukraine which Vitali appears to be selling.

That stems from financial mismanagement, in Ireland the sovereign debt was tied into the subprime mortgage crisis and collapse of the housing market in Ireland. It is shortsightedness to blame the EU policies when the government puts so much stock into fragile markets.

The EU has an idealistic financial framework that were being ignored by those nations and the biggest fault of the EU was not punishing them for it at the start. It is well known Greece hid it's financial problems from the EU to gain membership and strained under the weight of the GDP to debt ratio, then when it collapses the blame is put at the feet of the EU by the nationals?

The EU is far from perfect but it should not be the first port of call when looking at the economic problems that reside in a country. Relaxation of trade regulations is a massive part of why any country would want to be part of the EU, but ignoring financial management in order to gain those advantages doesn't only hurt the resident country it hurts the global economy.

I don't know how this would affect Ukraine (frankly I haven't paid enough attention to it's economy when I probably should have) and I won't comment until I have read proper evidence.

[Citizen Koba]

That stems from financial mismanagement, in Ireland the sovereign debt was tied into the subprime mortgage crisis and collapse of the housing market in Ireland. It is shortsightedness to blame the EU policies when the government puts so much stock into fragile markets.

The EU has an idealistic financial framework that were being ignored by those nations and the biggest fault of the EU was not punishing them for it at the start. It is well known Greece hid it's financial problems from the EU to gain membership and strained under the weight of the GDP to debt ratio, then when it collapses the blame is put at the feet of the EU by the nationals?

The EU is far from perfect but it should not be the first port of call when looking at the economic problems that reside in a country. Relaxation of trade regulations is a massive part of why any country would want to be part of the EU, but ignoring financial management in order to gain those advantages doesn't only hurt the resident country it hurts the global economy.

I don't know how this would affect Ukraine (frankly I haven't paid enough attention to it's economy when I probably should have) and I won't comment until I have read proper evidence.

This was more my point - I wasn't saying that the EU was intrinsically a bad thing, but there are many circumstances in which membership hasn't been to the benefit of it's member countries (or at least the mass of their populations). I was simply saying that it isn't necessarily in the interests of Ukraine - specially given the potential damage to their economic relationship with the Russian led customs Union upon whom so much of their energy supplies depend.


Anyways, whilst there's clearly more to be said, and I'm clearly far more sceptical than yourself as to both the idealism of the EU it's purpose and it's methods, this is perhaps not the place.

As to Greece, I shall write and tell my family that it's their own fault for being naive enough to trust their elected government and they better just suck it up. Let's hope the rest of us don't have to learn the same lesson. Funny how the EU poured a huge amount of funds into a campaign to support Greek membership (which had originally faced scepticism from the Greek population) when it transpires that they were already well aware of the endemic corruption and tax avoidance problems Greece was facing...why would they do that?