Wins/loses at different weights, does it matter?

[Kimmy]

I was having this debate in another thread but i am strongly willed on this one.
The case in point was if a fighter loses to another at say...middleweight. Then the fighter who lost goes to lightheavyweight and wins the undisputed championship. Meanwhile, the fighter who beat the guy who has won the UNdisputed title eventally moves up to lightheavy. NOW....

This is the problem. Would you rate the undisputed lightheavyweight champ as number one or would you rate the guy who beat this champion by virture of his moving up two weight divisions as number one?

The case in point earlier was Manny Pac and Barrera. barrera is undefeated at super featherweight. Morales was Linar champion when Barrera last beat him. Barrera has won the WBC/IBF titles to boot. Manny Pac's first fight at super feather was against morales and he lost. He did did win the rematch in great form.
However, and remember the weight issue i`m eluding too. Manny lost to Barrera's hand - me - downs. Then he beat Barrera's hand - me - downs. As creditable as those wins are, Manny has not beaten a world champion at super feather, only a disposed one, who beat him first time round. YES, i appreciate that Manny beat Barrera at featherweight and in good style. However, regardless of your fan approval, how could one think Manny Pac as the true champion when all he's done at SUPERFEATHERWEIGHT is beat Barrera's left overs?
Believe by all means that Manny Pac will do unspeakable pain to Barrera when they meet again but untill that day you must rate weight divisions independantly of accomplishment achieved in alternate weight catagorys. Barrera is 3 - 0 - 0 ( 1 ) at superfeather and has two title belts. Manny p, despite one good win over Morales is 2 - 1 - 0 ( 2 ) at super featherweight and he has not beaten a champion, sanctioned or linared.
I`m not hating on anyone, i just want to clarify that if were gonna have weight divisions then please reflect on them as they are, divisions.

[theironone]

thats the thing kimmy people justify pac being above bar in 130 because of the beatdown he put on him in 126, of course you are right but things are never quite so black and white, pac has beaten bars hand me downs better so there are always ways of presenting both sides.
Similar to hatton PBF in some respects Hat for me is no1 in 140 however i do think that PBF will beat him.
Back to pac imo he is the best fighter in 130 and 126 but to 'prove it' he has to beat bar again which i do believe he will do quite well, its a fine line

[Kimmy]

Similar to hatton PBF in some respects Hat for me is no1 in 140 however i do think that PBF will beat him.

Exactly what i'm talking about. The lodgic is that if Tsyzu was undisputed champ and hatton stopped him, then they can be no doubt that Hatton replaces this mantle. I too believe Mayweather would beat hatton ( Hatton does have a serious chance of proving me wrong but i think mayweather is better ) but Hatton beat the man who beat the man. Like Barrera, when hatton faced Tsyzu he faced the best 140 lbs, the undisputed champ, a man people raved about, and Hatton beat him.
Morales was WBC/IBF champ ( stripped of IBF before the fight ) and Barrera beat him, didn't dominate him, but certainly outpointed him. Then Manny Pac moves up and he wants the world title recognition at 130 because he beat Barrera at 126???? If you agree then WHY HAVE WEIGHT DIVISONS??
Manny pac may well beat Barrera, but untill he does at 130, he is NOT the top 130 fighter in the world ( but he is the top 126 fighter in the world )

[theironone]

like i said before thats true bar is the 'proper' no 1 but so many people think pac will walk it when they fight thats why they put him higher, then again how can he be classed as the top 126 fighter when hes currently fighting at 130 and for his last 3 contests

[Kimmy]

like i said before thats true bar is the 'proper' no 1 but so many people think pac will walk it when they fight thats why they put him higher, then again how can he be classed as the top 126 fighter when hes currently fighting at 130 and for his last 3 contests

I`ll rephrase. If Barrera and Pac fight again at 126 ( won't happen but lets say it does ) then pac is rightfully the number one, but at 130 pac hasn't earned that quality yet. people seem to not regard the weights as seperate in terms of ranking of fighters. By that lodgic you could say Tommy hearns, who fights at crusierweight no, should be rated higher than Virgil hill, a crusierweight champ, by virture of Hearn's 1991 title victory over hill at lightheavy! Same lodgic!

[theironone]

its not that simple, i understand what your saying but its not as clear cut as that, (the hearns v hill example), i dont think bar will ever see 126 ever again and to be honest ill be surprised if if pac does, hes following the money fights.

[Kimmy]

its not that simple, i understand what your saying but its not as clear cut as that, (the hearns v hill example), i dont think bar will ever see 126 ever again and to be honest ill be surprised if if pac does, hes following the money fights.

Sure, Morales, pac and Barrera are through with 126lbs. No doubt. Pac had an off night in the first morales fight ( well, some have claimed this, but barrera's not allowed an off night.
Imagine this, i know many will disagree because of their love for pac but..say pac and Barrera fight again ( possible ) and Barrera pulls out a split dec win. Now, they would have a victory a piece wouldn't they and probably warrant a third and deciding fight, fair enough. but if Barrera did get the `W` over Pac, through nook or cranny or whatever......what would be the percentage of manny pac fans slitting their wrists?

[theironone]

lol i truly love boxing but slitting your wrists come on now kim maybe a black armband.....

[Kimmy]

lol i truly love boxing but slitting your wrists come on now kim maybe a black armband.....

Well, i was a great fan of Holyfield when i was younger. I remember the night he beat Qawi. i had my mom put a 5 buck bet on Holyfield for me a i won....i would have been upset if he lost, after attended a few of the olympic boxing matches in Atlanta during 1984. However, as much as i am a fan of Holyfield, i wouldn't have lied on his behalf and made a silly statement like ` oh i think Holyfield would have had his way with Tyson and KO`ed him in say the 11th round blah blah, cos i knew that was just my heart speaking not my brain.
One must seperate feeling from judgement in order to get a clear opinion, and few fans on this site can do that...( few fans on this site have pubes i reakon by their ages )

[DiegoFuego]

I kinda look at it this way. Toney beating the heavyweights and winning a title will right all the wrongs he delt us by not being properly conditioned against Roy Jones and the losses to Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi, etc.