Whitaker is usually considered a top 10-20 ATG why?

[EDD1]

[IMG][/IMG]
skills from day one.

[slicksouthpaw16]

[IMG][/IMG]
skills from day one.

Baçk when pro debut opponents actually fought back, instead of just standing in one spot with their hands up looking for a way out the way they do today.

[NearHypnos]

It's the little things with pea that people didn't seem to recognize, like how he moved all the way up to 154 and beat Vasquez, who was not only the first fighter to beat Winky, but the first one to hurt or drop him (something that Mosley, Taylor or Hopkins wasn't able to do) dropping him like 5 times. And Whitaker dominated him.

Dude that fight was like in '93!!! Lol. I'd have to boxrec it but that fight had to have been sometime around 92-95. Winky didnt come into bis own til nearly 10 years later.


Anyway as much as I love Whitaker he had neither the atg best defense or is he top 10.


Stylistically he'd have some tough fights in this day and age (imo) possibly even losing.

I'm far from a Floyd or Pac d ick rider but I'd probably bet on them with the right odds.

Before I hear "JMM boxed Pac -insert comments here-" its just a style thing.

I dont think any version of Pernell beats Tito just off the style and even though Pernell was past prime I dont think he was SO far gone to have shown "If only he was 4 years younger."



Look, I'm a few shades away from being gay for Pernell and his style but if you look at the big picture he WAS a great fighter but top 10 ATG? Stylistically I have him losing fights to guys nowhere near those numbers.

Shouldnt an ATG be part resume and part being inserted into any era and being great?

[-PBP-]

First of all, let's get some things clear. No credible list has him in the top 10. This is a mere attempt to support an argument that "Pernell Whitaker is overrated" by trying to make it seem like his supporters rank him higher than he should be. So let's throw that out of the window and have a true, REALISTIC boxing discussion here.

Pernell Whitaker is hands down a top 25 ATG without question. His body of work is there: 6 time world champion in 4 weight divisions and only had one clear, indisputable loss in which he was past his prime against a prime ATG.

But the "6 time world champion in 4 weight divisions" has lost its meaning with this new era of boxing in which its cool to jump a weight division, beat the weakest title holder and win a title. So you have guys like Robert Guerrero, for instance that can make similar claims. That means we have to dig a little further into Whitaker's resume to see who is behind the paper achievements.

First 11 fights were tuneups. From that point forward:

Roger Mayweather - Pea's first step up fight in his 11th fight. Mayweather was a world champion at 130 before getting knocked out by Chavez. Mayweather would go on to move up in weight to capture a world title at light welterweight.

Jose Luis Ramirez - The first time he fought him it was a robbery that is universally accepted. He would go on to beat him a few years later. Ramirez was a top 10 lightweight for most of the decade, a lightweight world champion and a member of the world boxing hall of fame.

Greg Haugen - 2 fights later, he won his first title against Greg Haugen. Very tough rugged fighter, some great wins on his resume including some upsets later in his career and a member of the World boxing hall of fame. He was a top 3 lightweight for much of the late 80's.

Freddie Pendleton - BoxRec warriors will look at his resume and see 16 losses but Pendleton was a very game fighter, a LW world champion and another top 5 ranked opponent. Even after the loss to Whitaker he remained a top 3 lightweight for much of the early 90s.

Azumah Nelson - If you don't know who Azumah Nelson is you shouldn't be posting in this thread. Hall of famer, top 10 pound for pound fighter in the world and his only loss at the time was a classic against the late, great Salvador Sanchez. This needs no explanation.

Juan Nazario - Not really anything special but was coming off a big win in his previous fight over the #2 guy to capture the WBA LW title. Whitaker beat him to collect his 3rd world lightweight title and was now the King of the division holding all 3 major straps.

Jorge Paez - His last fight at LW. Paez was a top 3 opponent and another world champion.

So in cleaning out LW, Pernell Whitaker -

Held all 3 major world titles
Beat 3 hall of famers and a pound for pound top 10 fighter

Whitaker then moves up to 140, takes a couple of tuneups before challenging Rafael Pineda for a world title. Pineda was the #2 guy in the division behind Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker beat him to become a 2 division world champion.

Now he moves up to 147:

Buddy McGirt X 2 - #1 WW and top 10 pound for pound guy in the world. What more needs to be said. Sweet Pea captured the WBA title.

Julio Cesar Chavez - Speaks for itself.

His next big one was at 154 which he beat 53-1 Julio Cesar Vasquez for the LMW title. Vasquez was again the #1 guy at 154 (see a trend here).

He beat some more top 10 guys at welterweight but was really beginning to age. He looked bad in the first Rivera fight which I thought could have been scored either way and the Hurtado fight which he was on his way to losing.

His last great performance was against Oscar De La Hoya, a prime top 5 pound for pound guy in a fight that many at ringside including myself thought he won.

But resume is just part of the equation. In order to be considered an ATG, you have to have a strong resume. Everybody from 1-25 has a formidable resume. They beat the best fighters at or near their prime.

But what separates Whitaker from most is how he beat opponents. He dismantled these guys with ease and his skill level was on another level. He is widely considered the greatest defensive fighter of all time. And as I have shown, these were world class, top level opponents he was doing this against. Even an aging Whitaker with known drug problems was able to challenge the best pound for pound fighters in the world. He was a top 5 pound for pound fighter for 9 years straight. And he wasn't cherry picking opponents or retiring early to maintain that status.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Dude that fight was like in '93!!! Lol. I'd have to boxrec it but that fight had to have been sometime around 92-95. Winky didnt come into bis own til nearly 10 years later.


Anyway as much as I love Whitaker he had neither the atg best defense or is he top 10.


Stylistically he'd have some tough fights in this day and age (imo) possibly even losing.

I'm far from a Floyd or Pac d ick rider but I'd probably bet on them with the right odds.

Before I hear "JMM boxed Pac -insert comments here-" its just a style thing.

I dont think any version of Pernell beats Tito just off the style and even though Pernell was past prime I dont think he was SO far gone to have shown "If only he was 4 years younger."



Look, I'm a few shades away from being gay for Pernell and his style but if you look at the big picture he WAS a great fighter but top 10 ATG? Stylistically I have him losing fights to guys nowhere near those numbers.

Shouldnt an ATG be part resume and part being inserted into any era and being great?

Winky was always a good fighter, so it probably wasn't him coming to his own "10 years later" rather than top fighters finally taking fights against him and him fighting on major networks because he would fight all over the world early on, trying to make a name for himself. And when you take away the knockdowns against Vasquez, Wnky actually wins that fight so that should eliminate the "inexperienced" excuse. He was unbeaten at the time and obviously his handlers felt that was a fight he could win.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Dude that fight was like in '93!!! Lol. I'd have to boxrec it but that fight had to have been sometime around 92-95. Winky didnt come into bis own til nearly 10 years later.


Anyway as much as I love Whitaker he had neither the atg best defense or is he top 10.


Stylistically he'd have some tough fights in this day and age (imo) possibly even losing.

I'm far from a Floyd or Pac d ick rider but I'd probably bet on them with the right odds.

Before I hear "JMM boxed Pac -insert comments here-" its just a style thing.

I dont think any version of Pernell beats Tito just off the style and even though Pernell was past prime I dont think he was SO far gone to have shown "If only he was 4 years younger."



Look, I'm a few shades away from being gay for Pernell and his style but if you look at the big picture he WAS a great fighter but top 10 ATG? Stylistically I have him losing fights to guys nowhere near those numbers.

Shouldnt an ATG be part resume and part being inserted into any era and being great?

And "stylistically" who do you have beating Whitaker that's no where near those numbers?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Pernell is a top 10-20 ATG, He is one of the top 5 fighters i ever saw live......

he didnt dodge anybody, he basically beat everyone,,,,

People that think he is overrated are the ones that just started watching boxing in the past 10 years,,,,

Pernell is one of the best fighters who ever lived,,,,

As some other posters already broke down his resume, i wont, but its all in his resume,,, the dude had mad skills,,,

i wouldnt bet against him in any fight during his prime,,,

[Sugar Adam Ali]

First of all, let's get some things clear. No credible list has him in the top 10. This is a mere attempt to support an argument that "Pernell Whitaker is overrated" by trying to make it seem like his supporters rank him higher than he should be. So let's throw that out of the window and have a true, REALISTIC boxing discussion here.

Pernell Whitaker is hands down a top 25 ATG without question. His body of work is there: 6 time world champion in 4 weight divisions and only had one clear, indisputable loss in which he was past his prime against a prime ATG.

But the "6 time world champion in 4 weight divisions" has lost its meaning with this new era of boxing in which its cool to jump a weight division, beat the weakest title holder and win a title. So you have guys like Robert Guerrero, for instance that can make similar claims. That means we have to dig a little further into Whitaker's resume to see who is behind the paper achievements.

First 11 fights were tuneups. From that point forward:

Roger Mayweather - Pea's first step up fight in his 11th fight. Mayweather was a world champion at 130 before getting knocked out by Chavez. Mayweather would go on to move up in weight to capture a world title at light welterweight.

Jose Luis Ramirez - The first time he fought him it was a robbery that is universally accepted. He would go on to beat him a few years later. Ramirez was a top 10 lightweight for most of the decade, a lightweight world champion and a member of the world boxing hall of fame.

Greg Haugen - 2 fights later, he won his first title against Greg Haugen. Very tough rugged fighter, some great wins on his resume including some upsets later in his career and a member of the World boxing hall of fame. He was a top 3 lightweight for much of the late 80's.

Freddie Pendleton - BoxRec warriors will look at his resume and see 16 losses but Pendleton was a very game fighter, a LW world champion and another top 5 ranked opponent. Even after the loss to Whitaker he remained a top 3 lightweight for much of the early 90s.

Azumah Nelson - If you don't know who Azumah Nelson is you shouldn't be posting in this thread. Hall of famer, top 10 pound for pound fighter in the world and his only loss at the time was a classic against the late, great Salvador Sanchez. This needs no explanation.

Juan Nazario - Not really anything special but was coming off a big win in his previous fight over the #2 guy to capture the WBA LW title. Whitaker beat him to collect his 3rd world lightweight title and was now the King of the division holding all 3 major straps.

Jorge Paez - His last fight at LW. Paez was a top 3 opponent and another world champion.

So in cleaning out LW, Pernell Whitaker -

Held all 3 major world titles
Beat 3 hall of famers and a pound for pound top 10 fighter

Whitaker then moves up to 140, takes a couple of tuneups before challenging Rafael Pineda for a world title. Pineda was the #2 guy in the division behind Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker beat him to become a 2 division world champion.

Now he moves up to 147:

Buddy McGirt X 2 - #1 WW and top 10 pound for pound guy in the world. What more needs to be said. Sweet Pea captured the WBA title.

Julio Cesar Chavez - Speaks for itself.

His next big one was at 154 which he beat 53-1 Julio Cesar Vasquez for the LMW title. Vasquez was again the #1 guy at 154 (see a trend here).

He beat some more top 10 guys at welterweight but was really beginning to age. He looked bad in the first Rivera fight which I thought could have been scored either way and the Hurtado fight which he was on his way to losing.

His last great performance was against Oscar De La Hoya, a prime top 5 pound for pound guy in a fight that many at ringside including myself thought he won.

But resume is just part of the equation. In order to be considered an ATG, you have to have a strong resume. Everybody from 1-25 has a formidable resume. They beat the best fighters at or near their prime.

But what separates Whitaker from most is how he beat opponents. He dismantled these guys with ease and his skill level was on another level. He is widely considered the greatest defensive fighter of all time. And as I have shown, these were world class, top level opponents he was doing this against. Even an aging Whitaker with known drug problems was able to challenge the best pound for pound fighters in the world. He was a top 5 pound for pound fighter for 9 years straight. And he wasn't cherry picking opponents or retiring early to maintain that status.

THis dude breaks it down for y'all.....

great psot

[Dirk Diggler UK]

list his top 10 OFFICIAL wins please

Is there an "OFFICIAL" atg list?

[soul_survivor]

Top 10? No, top 20? No. It's looking at the past through rose tinted glasses. Out of top level fighters from 130-147/154, namely Pac, Floyd, Oscar, Mosley, Cotto, Tito, Forrest, Wright...I have them all, except Cotto beating Whitaker, with none of that prime BS (I know he fought Oscar and Tito and I think both won those fights with 0 controversy).

Don't get me wrong, Pea was a great fighter but he shouldn't be anywhere near the top 20, I'd say a lower tier top 30. That's not a slight on Pea as some Pea suckers will claim, being a top 30 guy out of all the 100s of legitimate world champions ain't so bad.