NYTimes openly suspicious of PED use by JMM

[tredh]

This is the perfect response and is 100% true. Pac fans are in denial and I'm not sure if its funny or pathetically sad.

Its easily the bold.

[danceswithfire]

So let me get this straight. Pac can go up in weight and KO bigger guys like Hatton and Cotto. Can beat the crap out of DLH, Marg and knockdown Mosley. And he does this all because of Ariza's protein shakes and healthy eating right? All natural.... how dare anyone accuse Pac of taking anything illegal. Let the commission do their job. They'll take you to court if you say anything otherwise.

Marquez is now fighting at welterweight and with a perfect textbook counterpunch KO's his longtime nemesis. But oh no it has to be because of PED's right? Maybe he needs to take his accusers to court. Don't think I've ever seen such a group of butthurt fans in my life.

the diffrence is ..pac carried hispower through out weightclasses..he's always been known for his power punching ability, thats not the case with jmm...jmm gained one punch power overnight...see the difrerence?

[Sheppirino]

the diffrence is ..pac carried hispower through out weightclasses..he's always been known for his power punching ability, thats not the case with jmm...jmm gained one punch power overnight...see the difrerence?

The real reason why Pac was able to hurt bigger guys the way he did was because he hit them with punches they couldn't see. His speed and the angles of the punches he threw enabled him to do that. That was the kind of punch Marquez caught Pac with. Pac jumped right into it. Marquez didn't even have his right arm fully extended when he landed that punch. Pac caught it full force on the chin. I don't care how good your chin is you get caught with something like that and you're going down.

[superchamp]

I think a lot of people have short memories.

After losing a close fight to Pac in 2008, Marquez moved up to 135 himself and brutally KO'd Joel Casamayor (who had never been KO'd before, even by big punches at that weight), then he brutally KO'd Juan Diaz (who had never been KO'd before, after fighting big punchers at that weight), and also KO'd the tough as nails Michael Katsidis.

Marquez has always had good power, he just started sitting down on his punches a little more as he moved up in weight and started producing some massive knockouts. (Sergio Martinez started doing the same thing after moving up to middleweight a few years ago. When he sits down on his punches, he can crack.)

JMM weighed in at 142 for the Floyd fight 3 years ago, looking like a blown up lightweight. After training to fight at welter/jr welter for the last 3 years he weighed in at 143. He still only came into the ring at 148, only a few pounds heavier than he would come into the ring at 130 or 135. He added some lean muscle mass, but didn't go up a ton of weight.

It's not much different than Pacquiao has done in the past few years. Pac has definitely filled out at welter since moving up to fight DLH four years ago, and he even looked much more solid against Cotto, and then more so against Clottey a year or so later. Now he weighs in at the 147 pound limit and comes in at 151.

Guys tend to fill out into the weight class they are fighting in over time. Floyd did as well after moving up to welter for a few years.

I'm not saying that Marquez (or Pac or Floyd or anyone else) is clean, but saying that because he looks bigger and punches harder he must be on PEDs is a bit misleading in and of itself.

I thought the extra muscle mass actually hampered him and that he looked slower as a result, but his skills and timing are still great and he used that to his advantage to sit down on his punches and land two of the hardest shots he's ever thrown.

[CubanGuyNYC]

The difference is that Marquez went from strictly conditioning and boxing based training to a more dynamic weight lifting and conditioning program. Aside from that, a professional was able to transform his nutrition which also makes a huge difference. I know my situation is much different because I'm younger, but I weighed between 120-135 lbs all through my early twenties while running a lot and minimal weight training. In my late 20's I have shifted to high intensity interval training and more weight training and am now 175-77, without the use of any PED's. And of course I am no elite athlete but like the previous post said, with nutrition and training changes dramatic changes are possible.

Marquez seems to be an example of an elite athlete who left the old school traditional mexican training methods and adopted scientifically proven modern methods and got results.

He has reiterated time and time again, he is willing to submit to any test any time. So unless there is some proof, all of these allegations are bull****. I'm not blindly following anyone though, and I would change my mind if he tested positive for a PED.

Excellent post.

I understand that Marquez changed training and nutrition approaches with the help of a professional (an expert who's been tied to PEDs, to be sure), but the age issue and high-level of his previous training are still factors. I agree that there's a difference between the old-school conditioning Juan Manuel used and modern weight training techniques, but I still believe there's less room for improvement for someone like him.

We're living in an age where any high-achieving athlete must be scrutinized. (That includes the recipient of Marquez's latest KO blow.) I agree that allegations don't carry any true weight until they're proven. But it's also naive to say that people are innocent unless (not until) they're proven guilty. There are ways to mask PED use. Lance Armstrong expertly avoided detection for a very long time. He had his defenders, who used the same argument. We've seen how that turned out.

I'm certainly not saying Juan Manuel cheated. But it's not just his physique change that's questionable. Marquez had never even knocked Pacquiao down in three prior meetings. Then he goes on to elevate his game at age 39 and knock Manny down twice, the second time in spectacularly concussive fashion. All of this raises legitimate questions.

[12TRIBEsRiSe]

so let me get this straight. Pac can go up in weight and ko bigger guys like hatton and cotto. Can beat the crap out of dlh, marg and knockdown mosley. And he does this all because of ariza's protein shakes and healthy eating right? All natural.... How dare anyone accuse pac of taking anything illegal. Let the commission do their job. They'll take you to court if you say anything otherwise.

Marquez is now fighting at welterweight and with a perfect textbook counterpunch ko's his longtime nemesis. But oh no it has to be because of ped's right? Maybe he needs to take his accusers to court. Don't think i've ever seen such a group of butthurt fans in my life.

thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[danceswithfire]

The real reason why Pac was able to hurt bigger guys the way he did was because he hit them with punches they couldn't see. His speed and the angles of the punches he threw enabled him to do that. That was the kind of punch Marquez caught Pac with. Pac jumped right into it. Marquez didn't even have his right arm fully extended when he landed that punch. Pac caught it full force on the chin. I don't care how good your chin is you get caught with something like that and you're going down.

thats a given ...but that would've have been possible if he was'nt a puncher ..pac made a name for himslef becuase of combination of pweor and speed ..jmm was becuase of his skills ..he was never known for his power

like i said , the ko punch was understandable coz pac was wallking to it but the kd in the third round ?..no way marquez was that strong

[Suavecito80]

thats a given ...but that would've have been possible if he was'nt a puncher ..pac made a name for himslef becuase of combination of pweor and speed ..jmm was becuase of his skills ..he was never known for his power

like i said , the ko punch was understandable coz pac was wallking to it but the kd in the third round ?..no way marquez was that strong

JMM now has more KO's than Pacquiao does.He has always had good power and caught Manny with a really good punch in the third round a brain scrambler in the sixth. Stop cyring about and give him his due. All this crying is getting old.

[CubanGuyNYC]

It depends, has Marquez been doing any type of resistance training a dieting. I use to train professional boxer Paul Marcinaccio. He never did any resistance training until I started working with him. He had gotten so much stronger, hitting harder and better stamina. The changes in his body were very visible. He was bullying bigger guys in the ring. It doesn't matter the age, as long as you're training correctly and dieting properly, you can get stronger. I'm 39 and and transform my body at the drop of a dime, not from any steroid use but working out the right way

Nice post. Always interesting to hear personal experiences in training.

I had a discussion with a bodybuilder friend a few years ago regarding Barry Bonds and steroid use. He was of the opinion that Bonds wasn't necessarily guilty of cheating. My friend explained that he never used steroids (I believe him), but managed to build a massive physique through years of dedicated training, supplementation and nutrition. Long story short, although I appreciated his own life experience, I still didn't buy that Bonds was necessarily clean (although he's never officially caught).

I agree that what you're saying is indeed possible, but that doesn't make it probable, especially given Juan Manuel's particulars. In the end, what I'm saying is that athletes like Marquez aren't necessarily dirty, but that their achievements are so high that they must be questioned in this day of widespread PED use.

[New England]

Very surprisingly that the biggest newspaper on the planet is openly implying JMM probably used PEDs in his last fight with PAC. I hate to say it, but I guess they're right. JMM is 39 yrs old and looks like a body builder.

i agree with everything they've said. they've got a right to be suspicious. they're not making accusations.

he's 39 years old. he's never looked like this.

his s and c coach is one of the world's experts on using steroids and avoiding detection.


if you're a journalist and you aren't suspicious you just might be on the take.