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**GrandpaBernard** · 12-25-2011, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by 4CornersKid View Post

I'd give Pacquiao a B-/B as well. He has a lot of names, but you also have to look at when he fought the people he did and what his opponents had done going into the fights with him. A lot of his big names were coming off really significant losses once he chose to fight them.

I'm glad you pointed this out. Many people just value the name

**crold1** · 12-25-2011, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by 4CornersKid View Post

1996: Rustico Torrecampo (11-4)- L KO3
---No siginificant wins.

1998: Chachai Sasakul (33-1)- W KO8 (Won WBC Flyweight title)
---Hadn't lost in 3 years, no significant wins.

1999: Medgoen Singsurat (18-0)- L TKO3 (Lost WBC Flyweight title)
---No significant wins.

2001: Lehlohonolo Ledwaba (33-1-1)- W KO6 (Won IBF Super Bantamweight title)
---Hadn't lost in 8 years, coming off win over Alvarez.

2001: Agapito Sanchez (31-9-2)- DRAW TD6
---Hadn't lost in 3 years, coming off win over Monsalvo.

2003: Emmanuel Lucero (21-0-1)- W TKO3
---Unbeaten, no significant wins.

2003: Marco Antonio Barrera (57-3)- W TKO11 (Won RING Featherweight title)
---Hadn't lost in 3 years, coming off wins over Morales, Hamed, and Tapia.

2004: Juan Manuel Marquez (44-2)- DRAW SD12
---Hadn't lost in 5 years, coming off win over Medina.

2005: Erik Morales (47-2)- L UD12
---Coming off wins over C. Hernandez and Chavez, and coming off loss to Barrera.

2006: Erik Morales (48-3)- W TKO10
---Coming off loss to Raheem.

2006: Oscar Larios (56-4-1)- W UD12
---Coming off loss to Vazquez.

2006: Erik Morales (48-4)- W KO3
---Immediate rematch.

2007: Jorge Solis (33-0-2)- W KO8
---Unbeaten, no significant wins.

2007: Marco Antonio Barrera (63-5)- W UD12
---Coming off wins over Juarez and loss to Marquez.

2008: Juan Manuel Marquez (48-3-1)- W SD 12 (Won WBC and RING Super Feathweight titles)
---Only loss in 9 years was a controverisal L to John. Coming off wins over Barrera and Juarez.

2008: David Diaz (34-1-1)- W TKO9 (Won WBC Lightweight title)
---Hadn't lost in 3 years, coming off win over Morales.

2008: Oscar De La Hoya (39-5)- W RTD8
---Coming off loss to Mayweather and win over Forbes. At a 145 lb CW.

2009: Ricky Hatton (45-1)- W KO2 (Won RING Jr. Welterweight title)
---Coming off loss to Mayweather and wins over Malignaggi and Lazcano.

2009: Miguel Cotto (34-1)- W TKO12 (Won WBO Welterweight title)
---Coming off loss to Margarito and controversial win over Clottey. At a 145 lb CW.

2010: Joshua Clottey (35-3)- W UD12
---Coming off win over Judah and controverisal loss to Cotto.

2010: Antonio Margarito (38-6)- W UD12 (Won vacant WBC Super Welterweight title)
---Coming off loss to Mosley. At a 150 lb CW.

2011: Shane Mosley (46-6-1)- W UD12
---Coming off loss to Mayweather and draw with Mora.

2011: Juan Manuel Marquez (53-5-1)- W MD12
---Coming off loss to Mayweather, and wins over Diaz and Katsidis.

I'd give Pacquiao a B-/B as well. He has a lot of names, but you also have to look at when he fought the people he did and what his opponents had done going into the fights with him. A lot of his big names were coming off really significant losses once he chose to fight them. He has a good resume, same with Floyd, but they need to fight each other, as well as people like Sergio Martinez, Timothy Bradley, Amir Khan (if he bounces back), and James Kirkland (if he keeps winning) to elevate themselves that much higher.

Sasakul had no significant wins? He beat one of the top 25 Flyweights of all time for his title. He also had a win over Cordoba, who would go on to win a belt. Sasakul was pretty good fighter.

**4Corners** · 12-25-2011, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by crold1 View Post

Sasakul had no significant wins? He beat one of the top 25 Flyweights of all time for his title. He also had a win over Cordoba, who would go on to win a belt. Sasakul was pretty good fighter.

True. I'd forgotten about Sasakul's wins over Cordoba and Arbachakov prior to his fight with Manny. My main prblem with even mentioning those wins are the fact a lot of Pacquiao fans say "Well that was so long ago, back in the 90's when no one knew Manny" when people bring up how he was KO'd by Torrecampo and Singsurat. But, if they give him credit for winning his FLyweight title back in the 90's, they better look at how he was KO'd twice at Flyweight.

**crold1** · 12-25-2011, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by 4CornersKid View Post

True. I'd forgotten about Sasakul's wins over Cordoba and Arbachakov prior to his fight with Manny. My main prblem with even mentioning those wins are the fact a lot of Pacquiao fans say "Well that was so long ago, back in the 90's when no one knew Manny" when people bring up how he was KO'd by Torrecampo and Singsurat. But, if they give him credit for winning his FLyweight title back in the 90's, they better look at how he was KO'd twice at Flyweight.

Yes and no. Even Sasakul, he was losing and let loose a nuke. Torrecampo...have you seen it? He got KO'd with a vicious low blow and simultaneous headbutt to the chin. Hard to count a foul loss against a relative novice. Manny isn't some dude with a rich international amateur background. That he won a title there is a testament to his raw talent. He lost the belt on the scales to Singsurat and was starved, bested by an average body shot. Lorenzo Parra lost his Flyweight belt to Sakata in somewhat similar fashion after beating him pretty easy twice before. Pac was barely out of his 20s and staying where he was for money because where the hell else can guys go most times? It bit him in the ass. Since he stopped starving, he's taken body shots fine so it's kind of a pointless spot for criticism.

Context bro.

**4Corners** · 12-25-2011, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by crold1 View Post

Yes and no. Even Sasakul, he was losing and let loose a nuke. Torrecampo...have you seen it? He got KO'd with a vicious low blow and simultaneous headbutt to the chin. Hard to count a foul loss against a relative novice. Manny isn't some dude with a rich international amateur background. That he won a title there is a testament to his raw talent. He lost the belt on the scales to Singsurat and was starved, bested by an average body shot. Lorenzo Parra lost his Flyweight belt to Sakata in somewhat similar fashion after beating him pretty easy twice before. Pac was barely out of his 20s and staying where he was for money because where the hell else can guys go most times? It bit him in the ass. Since he stopped starving, he's taken body shots fine so it's kind of a pointless spot for criticism.

Context bro.

True. I just think they both need to fight each other, as well as Sergio, Bradley, Khan, Kirkland, Peterson, Berto, etc. and it would elevate them even higher. I doubt it will play out like that, but you never know.

I think a lot of times, due to their personalities and attitude, people overrate Manny's wins against Morales, Hatton, and Margarito, and than underrate Floyd's wins over Corrales, Castillo, and Hatton.

For example, how can anyone sit here and say Floyd's win over Marquez meant NOTHING??? Marquez, who's 2 1/2 years older now, just arguably beat Manny Pacquiao at the same weight, and the 2 lbs Floyd was over 144 had NOTHING to do with how Juan was dominated in every aspect of the game. It was like one of the most dominant performances between 2 P4P stars in the history of the sport. I know Marquez was at 135 when he went up to 144, and Floyd was bigger. But, Marquez just arguably beat Manny at the same weight, which is why people should give Floyd his due for dominating Marquez, though most Floyd haters never will. So, while Manny gets massive credit for fighting a draw with Marquez, and 2 controversial SD and MD wins, Floyd gets zero credit for pretty shutting Marquez out. Manny potential lost all 3 fights with Marquez, depending on who you talk to, but gets credit, while Floyd dominated him and gets none.

Both have B resumes to me. Good, not great. But, BOTH can still boost their resume's these next 1-2 years.

**BillyBoxing** · 12-25-2011, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by 4CornersKid View Post

True. I just think they both need to fight each other, as well as Sergio, Bradley, Khan, Kirkland, Peterson, Berto, etc. and it would elevate them even higher. I doubt it will play out like that, but you never know.

I think a lot of times, due to their personalities and attitude, people overrate Manny's wins against Morales, Hatton, and Margarito, and than underrate Floyd's wins over Corrales, Castillo, and Hatton.

For example, how can anyone sit here and say Floyd's win over Marquez meant NOTHING??? Marquez, who's 2 1/2 years older now, just arguably beat Manny Pacquiao at the same weight, and the 2 lbs Floyd was over 144 had NOTHING to do with how Juan was dominated in every aspect of the game. It was like one of the most dominant performances between 2 P4P stars in the history of the sport. I know Marquez was at 135 when he went up to 144, and Floyd was bigger. But, Marquez just arguably beat Manny at the same weight, which is why people should give Floyd his due for dominating Marquez, though most Floyd haters never will. So, while Manny gets massive credit for fighting a draw with Marquez, and 2 controversial SD and MD wins, Floyd gets zero credit for pretty shutting Marquez out. Manny potential lost all 3 fights with Marquez, depending on who you talk to, but gets credit, while Floyd dominated him and gets none.

Both have B resumes to me. Good, not great. But, BOTH can still boost their resume's these next 1-2 years.

Floyd and Manny aren't on the same standard, Floyd is clearly bigger than Manny.
Manny still was a featherweight in 2008 entering his 30s, lower than where Money started his career.

Most people overlook the fact that Manny weighed 143 for the Marquez fight.

Manny is shorter than Marquez, and was about the same weight on fight night.

**Chups** · 12-25-2011, 05:18 PM

It's an A or an A-.

**4Corners** · 12-25-2011, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by BillyBoxing View Post

Floyd and Manny aren't on the same standard, Floyd is clearly bigger than Manny.
Manny still was a featherweight in 2008 entering his 30s, lower than where Money started his career.

Most people overlook the fact that Manny weighed 143 for the Marquez fight.

Manny is shorter than Marquez, and was about the same weight on fight night.

True. But still, Floyd isn't THAT much more huge than Manny, or else that would be the excuse when they fight if Floyd were to win.

Floyd is 5'8'' and weighs in at about 146-147 (146.5 vs Ortiz) for the fight. Manny is about 5'6 1/2'' and weighs in anywhere from 143-146 for his fights now. Not THAT much bigger. Also, I think Manny was weighing in at like 147 or so on fight night against Marquez (could be wrong about the exact weight), where as the highest Floyd has ever weighed on fight nights were 150 vs De La Hoya and Ortiz.

Floyd's not THAT much bigger, at this moment in time. Yes, Floyd was always a couple weight classes above Manny before they were both at 147, which is why I laugh at some of these moronic Pacquiao fans (only the dumb ones) that say Floyd ducked Morales, Barrera, etc. at 130 lbs......Floyd was LONG GONE once those guys got up to 130 lbs, always was at least a weight class above them.

Floyd was always above Manny in weight, which is what people said to accuse Manny of PED's, given the facts that he was refusing random tests up until fight day. Manny jumped from 129-130 against Marquez up to 140 and above against De La Hoya and Hatton, in not even a years time. That's the main reason people accused him. I don't think he ever did PED's, and it's refreshing to hear that he will supposedly finally agree to tests by the USADA. It will help him clear his name with anyone and everyone.

But, RIGHT NOW, Floyd's not that much bigger really.

**The MiZ** · 12-25-2011, 05:32 PM

He gets a C, he passes, if he was undeafeted with them name, id give him an A

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