Were the past greats really that great!?

[edgarg]

That wasn't a "gaping hole" in his defense. He was defensively almost perfect. That was an occasional bringing back his left hand a bit lower than he should have, and Schmeling saw it and capitalised, shooting over an immediate straight right hand as his left was going back. He never recovered from it as it was completely unseen. Also he'd been fighting only for less than 2 years, and had had about 12 fights in the previous year. He was still learning and Schmeling was a

Sorry, computer glitch. Schmeling was a seasoned pro. Louis never let it happen again. The unusual thing about this fight was that Jack Johnson wanted to train him, but because Louis' backers had picked him to be the exact opposite of Johnson in behaviour etc, they wouldn't hear of it. They didn't want to have anything to do with Johnson, who, because of his behaviour whilst champion, had given black fighters a very bad name.

Anyway, in annoyance, Johnson told a top analyst-expert of the time (can't recall whom) that Louis had a little weak spot which was going to get him beaten, and described exactly what would, and did happen. But as I said, Jack Blackburn quickly rectified it, and it never happened again.

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

So Zab Judah would beat Antonio Margarito, right? Because Zab Judah is a freakish athlete with unbelievable natural speed, balance, coordination and explosiveness. Margarito is a simple East LA brawler who couldn't outmaneuver a dump truck. But I think everyone agrees that a prime Margarito would tear Zab limb from limb. Why?? Because a boxer isn't all about athleticism. This isn't basketball or football where a guy like Vince Carter or Calvin Johnson can dominate based on pure athletic gifts alone. A lot of it - most of it -is grit, will and determination.

that's not what im saying at all. You are trying to distort my overall point using the most extreme of examples. In general Im talking about modern all time greats vs past all time greats which means athletes that have the total package ie athleticism plus will & determination. Even with margarito, at least he's facing today's modern athlete. Plus zab & margs are from the same time period and whose to say margarito beats zab?

Would Babe Ruth who was obese and played in the dead ball be as great if you transported him to play today? That's slob wouldnt even make triple A today. Would wilt that scored 50 per game transported today, heck transported in the 90s come close to that number?

Sports across the board have evolved and so has its athletes, its preparation, equipment, diet, medicine, etc..

[shadeyfizzle]

ESPECIALLY BASEBALL. Everybody thought ty cobb was the greatest then along came babe ruth, then everybody thought he was the greatest, then along came willie mays/micky mantle, then along came arod bbonds.

I mean even before bonds got busted he was already considered one of the greatest ever. Take the PEDS issue for example, who decides what are legal & what is legal? Just think about that.

You cannot deny athletes of today have evolved along with their sport. Oldschool fogey athletes would find it extremely difficult to compete with todays athletes.

Boxing unlike other sports however is not completely driven by athletic ability. There arr mental and physical aspects that are simply immeasurable.

there is a general consensus on joe frazier for example that he is undersized and undertalented. That he would be a big underdog to more modern heavyweights like tyson and holyfield. And yet on 1 night bested the greatest heavyweight of all time. And on a 2nd night nearly claimed the right to be called the greatest ever for himself.

[cupocity303]

You're wrong. A couple of examples are Joe Gans, Jack Johnson, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, all defensive wizards, Johnson in particular who preferred to stand off and pick at his opponent until he felt like finishing him off, depending on his mood. He was noted for carrying on conversations with ringsiders whilst fighting. He is still regarded as the best defensive boxer ever (for sure in Heavyweight) actually able to pick off punches in mid air. Joe Gans was a close second, and as fast as anyone today.

And I'm sure I can think of many more. Mike and Tommy Gibbons for two. Yet Dempsey won all 15 rds against Tommy. Gene Tunney for another, when he wanted to. These guys could do everything, depending on how they felt and who they were fighting.More were benny Leonard, Freddiw Welsh and Holman Williams,all defensive experts who could do it all.

You're exaggerating, nostalgic old-timer.

I don't even know where to begin, but it would be futile anyway as you have a higher opinion of the past then me.

This is exactly how old-timers talk.

[cupocity303]

Less experience makes you a better technician?

I don't know what you're talking about or what your comprehension of my post was. But you miscomprehended.

[Pin Galarga]

All the great lost fights when they got too confident, but unlike the new breed, they bounce back with a perfect fight right after. Unlike all this steroid mass, they pay there price and fought 2 or 3 times more winning most of their fights.

NO ONE CAN TAKE THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS. THEY WILL REMAIN OTG's regardless of stupid thread like this one.

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

Boxing unlike other sports however is not completely driven by athletic ability. There arr mental and physical aspects that are simply immeasurable.

there is a general consensus on joe frazier for example that he is undersized and undertalented. That he would be a big underdog to more modern heavyweights like tyson and holyfield. And yet on 1 night bested the greatest heavyweight of all time. And on a 2nd night nearly claimed the right to be called the greatest ever for himself.

You act as if only old school fighters are the only ones capable of great mental will & determination.

If both fighters are mentally tough, technically gifted, physically gifted, but one fighter is from the 30s-40s and one is from the 80s-90s... i would go with the much modern athlete who has advantages that oldschool fighter doesnt have.

[shadeyfizzle]

Sorry, computer glitch. Schmeling was a seasoned pro. Louis never let it happen again. The unusual thing about this fight was that Jack Johnson wanted to train him, but because Louis' backers had picked him to be the exact opposite of Johnson in behaviour etc, they wouldn't hear of it. They didn't want to have anything to do with Johnson, who, because of his behaviour whilst champion, had given black fighters a very bad name.

Anyway, in annoyance, Johnson told a top analyst-expert of the time (can't recall whom) that Louis had a little weak spot which was going to get him beaten, and described exactly what would, and did happen. But as I said, Jack Blackburn quickly rectified it, and it never happened again.

I suppose you were referring to my post. It seems like minor details for an otherwise excellent all around fighters but it is what it is. Keeping your hands up is a basic fundamental of the sport. You learn it day1. Regardless of how sporadically it happened, its what you would call a rookie mistake and he learned it the hard way.

There was an interesting film from the 70s I believe of ali and howard cossell breaking down joe louis. With ali going as far as shadow boxing with the projection of louis claiming he would never be able to beat him plodding forward while he was on his toes moving and jabbing.

[AlwaysOnTop]

ive had several discussions about this in the history section. The reason why past greats in all sports are somewhat looked at as THE GREATEST and are GROSSLY overrated is to PRESERVE HISTORY. PRESERVE CULTURE.

If you look at all the sports across the board, the greatest in their respective sport have always come in recent/modern times (modern athletes roughly 1970s and after).

Somebody better always comes along...

Just look at all the sports who are the greatest in their profession everybody thought rod laver was the best tennis player of all time then along came Bjorn Bjorg then along came connors/johnny mac then along came Agassi/Sampras then along came Federer/Nadal. Basketball everybody thought Mikan/Cousy/Wilt/Russell were the greatest then along came Dr. J/Kareem everybody thought they were the greatest then along came Bird/Magic then along came Jordan. Track & field everybody thought wow jesse owens the greatest then along came carl lewis then along came Usain Bolt....

You can do this in every sport the greatest always have come in recent times.

You CANNOT IGNORE ATHLETIC EVOLUTION.

Athletes today are BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER & more importantly BETTER.

The only reason why athletes of yesteryear are held in such high regard and their greatness NEVER BEING CHALLENGED is that they want to PRESERVE HISTORY AND CULTURE.

Boxing is no different. The biggest crock of **** perpetrated is the so called "Golden Age" of boxing. They say this era had the greatest fighters ever and it was boxing at its finest....

GTFO YOU OLD FART C*CKSUCKERS.

Golden Age of Boxing = Crooked ass fixed fights controlled by the mafia, Black fighters not given opportunities, Referees refereeing & JUDGING THE OUTCOME OF THE WINNER(wtf???), news paper decisions, Great fighters fighting opponents with 20-30 losses(can you imagine if pac & floyd did that?), rampant racism, no globalization...

From football,basketball,baseball,tennis, track & field,soccer,golf etc.. the greatest of all times/athletes have always come during modern times, during the much evolved state of its sport, Not during its infancy.

This guy is stupid...lol

How are WW's and MW's for example bigger today??

WW and MW have ALWAYS been 147 and 160

Is Sergio Martinez bigger and stronger than Gene Fullmer...??

LOL

C'mon..

[AlwaysOnTop]

WELL i mean they would have the same advantages that the fighters do now .

evolved training methods , nutritionist etc.....

But i think these guys would receive hell from current fighters .

Maybe vitali and lennox wouldve been too much for ali .

maybe hopkins would completely school hagler

Mayweather couldve beaten Leonard based on the assumption that FLOYDS DAD GAVE SUGAR RAY A GOOD A S S FIGHT BEFORE BEING KOED

AND FLOYD IS WAY BETTER THAN POPS .

Nobody knows all 1 can do is assume .


But yeah ive seen ignorant people that think of old school fighters as immortal gods that wouldnt lose to todays weak mortalSSSSSSSSSSSS LOL THATS HOW THEY THINK

"evolved training methods , nutritionist etc"

That is a MYTH....