Comments Thread For: George Foreman: Klischko Was Afraid To Engage Haye

[edgarg]

Why do you alternate pretty good posts with complete gibberish like this?

Maybe it's the nature of humanity after all. I don't say that you are wrong, just that I'd like you to tell me WHERE I am wrong, and why? I quote facts, and do not revel in it. In my opinion, the evidence is there.

There were 2 period's contributing to "Big" George's " All-time Greatness". During that 1st period we have been regaled ad infinitum with the feats of Muhammed Ali. Without disputing whether HE was "Great" or not, the fight which ALWAYS is chosen to show him "at his peak", (at which he may have been but it cannot be proven by THIS fight) is the one against Cleveland Williams, an imposing figure of a man, who is best known for having a potent left hook, when it landed, and having been bombed out twice, IN HIS PRIME in, I think, 2 rounds, each time by Sonny Liston.

Yet, WHO truly mentions that the REAL facts concerning the Williams who faced Ali that night?? It would be instructive to look them up from the original documents that I saw and actually HAVE. which are the boxing magazines of that very time, for the year BEFORE the so-called Ali-peak fight. To mention them, just confuses people and spoils the story.

Not that I say that the best Williams would have won, he would not in my opinion, because he lacked the skills and speed, both to a woeful degree. At that time I was very interested in Williams, who was "built like Max Baer", and had a most interesting millionaire manager, who's name I think (can be corrected if wrong) was Hugh Benbow, a Quaker or a Mormon, can't quite remember. But the combination of his religion and his particular belief and unwavering faith in Williams the pugilist, intrigued my fancy, so I always was interested in whatever they both were doing. Which is why I rememember what happened so well, without needing to look it up.

The night of the fight, people in the KNOW, knew that Williams was basically a "walking corpse". Of course I've put it too strongly, as he fought quite a bit afterwards, after all, that was his living, but those who KNOW, know what I'm talking about. His having been shot point-blank, hanging between life and death for months in hospital, dying and being revived more than once (can't recall how many times) losing vital organs,and of course, most or all toughness and skill he'd had before the policeman mistakenly shot him, during a simple license pull over, because he'd felt "intimidated by this huge guy".......

I recall the report that the judge said, that he would have been shot dead instantly if it were not for the extraordinary 6 inch slab of muscle on his body which saved his life.

I know that I have gone away from the story of "Big" George's all-time Greatness, but am just quoting a sample to show that what has become the oft repeated common "lore" and "legend" can very often be just "myth" and "smoke"....Sorry.

For what I have written about "Big" George, I would be happy to be shown where I am wrong, since this is a discussion between boxing enthusiasts, who, by the nature "of the beast" cannot be expected to have seen the same facts, from the same angles or points of view. I have seen honest, eye witness differences in actual real-life court cases too many times not to know that sincere people seeing the same thing can actually, more often than not, not be seeing the same thing.

After all, as I said, it's just my opinion. And thank you for the (back-handed) compliment.

[edgarg]

Great unbiased analysis from someone who calls themselves surprise surprise Klitschko.

Shame you missed the point though. That point being that, Wlad WAS afraid to engage, He clinched and grabbed as soon as Haye got close. He was tentative and didn't even TRY to get Haye out of there, even with all the physical advantages he had over Haye. Foreman said nothing wrong. He didn't dispute the result did he? He just said that he fought scared, which he did,he was afraid to get hit, which he was, and took ZERO chances. Foreman is just basically saying that a scared fighter will not get much props no matter how effective his style is.

I'm inclined to agree with much of what George said. Wlad just doesn't show much killer instinct out there even though he is usually far bigger than his opponents.

He didn't look afraid to me- but he could be just a good actor, and really scared stiff. To me he seemed incomplete control, and fought a technically very correct, indeed perfect fight against a wild, unskilled amateur, whom he wanted to expose for 12 rounds. His father was on his deathbed, brought to the hospital to be able to see the fight on TV and then transported home again to die. Which as we all know he did. Well, so the news tells us.

I believe that Klitschko wanted to MAKE SURE that he won, and fulfilled the family dream and ambition of holding ALL THE BELTS. Something to allow a father to die....Proud.

Just my opinion.

I know it doesn't please those who like to see bash, crash, broken bones, blood, KO's etc. but in that cae, get yourself re-born during ancient Rome when the "show" at the Coliseum would have been more to your liking.

[crold1]

I've been indicted before, and have never been found guilty yet. And every time I've been the plaintiff, I've gained the verdict. Of course I'm not talking boxing, and from your comment it seems you may not be either. Else you would not ignore the actual facts.

The facts themselves are there to be seen and read, and also to be understood. The last is neccessary. Who did "BIG" George beat to give him the title of "All time Great". More than half-blind little Joe Frazier, who was a completely wrong match-up as well as already past his best.

The "fight" itself showed that. "Big" George displayed no skill at all, but since Frazier obligingly bent down enough so that he could be walked into and slugged face first, the way "Big" George liked it, well, I suppose that made HIM and "all Time Great" as well........

Lumbering Strength alone is not "Greatness"- skill is required also.

Just my opinion.

On a different point, but one which I have always wanted to know, and you likely have the answer......why is it that the Joe frazier we have seen for the past so many years, seems so wasted away and looks as if he could be blown over by a medium breeze. He looks very gaunt and without a muscle in his body. Is he ill??

Joe's just getting old. I'm sure a lifetime of fighting, and nights like Manila, are not kind either. As to some specific ailing, I don't know.

[crold1]

He didn't look afraid to me- but he could be just a good actor, and really scared stiff. To me he seemed incomplete control, and fought a technically very correct, indeed perfect fight against a wild, unskilled amateur, whom he wanted to expose for 12 rounds. His father was on his deathbed, brought to the hospital to be able to see the fight on TV and then transported home again to die. Which as we all know he did. Well, so the news tells us.

I believe that Klitschko wanted to MAKE SURE that he won, and fulfilled the family dream and ambition of holding ALL THE BELTS. Something to allow a father to die....Proud.

Just my opinion.

I know it doesn't please those who like to see bash, crash, broken bones, blood, KO's etc. but in that cae, get yourself re-born during ancient Rome when the "show" at the Coliseum would have been more to your liking.

Wlad is always 'afraid' but not in a cowardly sense. He's scared smart if you get what I mean. He can control space as well as anyone because he has a phone pole coming off his shoulder. Everyone knows how he is going to fight. It's up to foes to make something else happen. Against Haye, neither fighter looked good BUT the onus was on Haye to make something happen. He wasn't willing to risk it. The one thing Haye did well when flat footed was use head movement. He made Wlad miss as bad as anyone ever has. Wlad won the fight almost entirely on a touching jab. There were barely any clean power shots from either man BUT Haye created openings to exploit by slipping.

In other words, he made him miss.

He didn't have the stones to try to make him pay consistently. It was weird because it's not like Wlad could counter him. Wlad doesn't counter. There were moments in the corner where both dudes just sort of froze waiting for someone to lead. Uugh.

It was easier to pot shot and hope for Wlad to just fold(?). Dumb. He can talk now about nice it will be to see Wlad hit the Hall while he buys tickets.

[edgarg]

Frazier was six foot tall and averaged somewhere in the 210 range. So the answer is no George I can't imagine Frazier going after Wlad.

At his peak he was a little under 6 ft. and about 205.

[edgarg]

Joe's just getting old. I'm sure a lifetime of fighting, and nights like Manila, are not kind either. As to some specific ailing, I don't know.

Thanks for the info. he always looks so unhealthy and actually frail, that it's hard to visualise him as bulging with muscle and the all active fighter that he was.

[Steak]

Maybe it's the nature of humanity after all. I don't say that you are wrong, just that I'd like you to tell me WHERE I am wrong, and why? I quote facts, and do not revel in it. In my opinion, the evidence is there.

There were 2 period's contributing to "Big" George's " All-time Greatness". During that 1st period we have been regaled ad infinitum with the feats of Muhammed Ali. Without disputing whether HE was "Great" or not, the fight which ALWAYS is chosen to show him "at his peak", (at which he may have been but it cannot be proven by THIS fight) is the one against Cleveland Williams, an imposing figure of a man, who is best known for having a potent left hook, when it landed, and having been bombed out twice, IN HIS PRIME in, I think, 2 rounds, each time by Sonny Liston.

Yet, WHO truly mentions that the REAL facts concerning the Williams who faced Ali that night?? It would be instructive to look them up from the original documents that I saw and actually HAVE. which are the boxing magazines of that very time, for the year BEFORE the so-called Ali-peak fight. To mention them, just confuses people and spoils the story.

Not that I say that the best Williams would have won, he would not in my opinion, because he lacked the skills and speed, both to a woeful degree. At that time I was very interested in Williams, who was "built like Max Baer", and had a most interesting millionaire manager, who's name I think (can be corrected if wrong) was Hugh Benbow, a Quaker or a Mormon, can't quite remember. But the combination of his religion and his particular belief and unwavering faith in Williams the pugilist, intrigued my fancy, so I always was interested in whatever they both were doing. Which is why I rememember what happened so well, without needing to look it up.

The night of the fight, people in the KNOW, knew that Williams was basically a "walking corpse". Of course I've put it too strongly, as he fought quite a bit afterwards, after all, that was his living, but those who KNOW, know what I'm talking about. His having been shot point-blank, hanging between life and death for months in hospital, dying and being revived more than once (can't recall how many times) losing vital organs,and of course, most or all toughness and skill he'd had before the policeman mistakenly shot him, during a simple license pull over, because he'd felt "intimidated by this huge guy".......

I recall the report that the judge said, that he would have been shot dead instantly if it were not for the extraordinary 6 inch slab of muscle on his body which saved his life.

I know that I have gone away from the story of "Big" George's all-time Greatness, but am just quoting a sample to show that what has become the oft repeated common "lore" and "legend" can very often be just "myth" and "smoke"....Sorry.

For what I have written about "Big" George, I would be happy to be shown where I am wrong, since this is a discussion between boxing enthusiasts, who, by the nature "of the beast" cannot be expected to have seen the same facts, from the same angles or points of view. I have seen honest, eye witness differences in actual real-life court cases too many times not to know that sincere people seeing the same thing can actually, more often than not, not be seeing the same thing.

After all, as I said, it's just my opinion. And thank you for the (back-handed) compliment.

Foreman came back at 45 to become the best heavyweight in the world.

and Norton, who he demolished, gave Holmes a hell of a fight. the same Holmes that would in his 40s beat Mercer much more one sidedly than a near prime Lennox Lewis could.

how can you not see how good that era was? two guys from that era were still getting world class wins two decades later...

[B.U.R.N.E.R]

Anyone with a damn brain could see that Wlad wanted nothing to do with tasting Hayes power. And vice versa. They both fought very timid.

[Battle*Hardened]

Wlad is so overrated... He fights bums, and is so fucking one dimensional it's crazy..... Quit overrating him.. Ya he's big, but all the top past HW's have fought big guys before. Wlad isn't the first 6'5 240 guy to ever fight at HW.

[edgarg]

Please, Liston had 84 inches of reach. Not to mention he had a very good jab and power.

LOL at Vitali putting Foreman in a stretcher when he could not even knockdown Lewis.

If it weren't for the ropes holding Lewis up in that second rd he would have been KD, and maybe even in the same rd...stopped.