How can people easily forget?

[Code Red]

No the hate began when he started taking the easiest possible fights that NO ONE wants to see

^^This




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[carts]

^^This




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STFU... did u even know what happeded when pac fought clottey in america in cowboys stadium? so no one wants to see that fight huh

[The Gambler1981]

Although I know what you mean, Barrera, Marquez and Morales were all in their prime still when they first loss and came back. They were also great fighters.

Mosley is 40 year old and hasn't won his last two fights and has actually looked shot. Big difference. Being in your prime and losing by KO (Barrera) is very, very, very different to being at the end of your career and not actually being a great fighter in the first place. Morales getting knocked out by Pac is a classic example. In his prime Morales would have won all their fights. They would have looked like the first one, but even easier for him (not that it was easy!). As it was, he was knocked out because things didn't work properly anymore. Mosley has that. His stamina, which used to be great, is terrible now. His speed is gone and his combination punching is lacking.

Clottey, as much as I like him, is not actually a good fighter. In any other era (apart from todays twenty titles a division era) he wouldn't have ever won a title and he's still lost every major fight he's had.

Margarito had clearly lost something major after being knocked out, cheating, suspended etc. After being iron chinned and a solid champion, he'd been dominated like never before, hit and beaten so badly that it was, before it had even ended, been an obvious career ending beating. Barrera took one big punch at the start of his career in short fight that was even....Margarito took nine rounds of those KO punches flush to the body and head as a +30 year old, slow, defenseless hack before finally folding. He was done as a top fighter. He was also not ranked (in reality, not the BS that gave him the No1 spot at 154) when Pac fought him.

Cotto was a great win, but again, he'd recently been knocked out and had looked different. Barrera came back looking better having fixed what was wrong. Cotto came back looking more vulnerable than ever.

Hatton should not have been the lineal champ and was clearly not close to the best fighter at 140 anymore. Again, at the end of his career and had looked terrible and vulnerable like never before after his KO loss, not better.

I know what you mean and they have all been good wins, but they are all in similar positions. Big names, but not great wins because they were all different fighter than they had been.

It would be like saying Kirkland Laing beat a prime Roberto Duran. He had come back from losses before and did after that loss. You only need to see him fight before and after the first and second Leonard fight to see something had been lost between those first and second fights though. He had climbed the mountain, had proven the world wrong and done everything possible in his career and had no more passion/anger etc after the first one, then was humiliated in the New Orleans rematch which further killed him and that passion. Just because he was Duran didn't mean Laing beat Manos De Piedra. It's the same with those guys. Beating the name doesn't mean you are beating the legend. These guys aren't even legends, and some aren't even very good really. Hatton, Clottey and Margarito are overrated simply by fighting Pac. They were, or have, been made out to be better than they ever were in the first place in their primes.

Just because Pac's fighting Mosley doesn't mean he's fighting the guy that beat Oscar. The fact is he's not a good fighter anymore and quite a few of them weren't what they had been.

Each and every one of those guys you listed, Pac's recent fights, were all: past their best, lost recent fights badly but most obvious were or are at the end of their careers. They are not greats (well, Mosley is....certainly not now though) like Barrera, Marquez or Morales though.

When Barrera lost he was about twenty and he came back and changed and kept changing. These guys are all past it, old and losing because they are past it, shot, old etc. Not because they are still getting better.

Names are great but don't give the whole picture, but then again that is why there are 5 Ws and not just who.

[The Gambler1981]

Floyd was still the champion in 2008 so no Manny did not fight all the top 5~ unless you consider the champion not in the top 5~

[kadyo's]

Let us make them remember.

[nujabes77]

Let us make them remember.

kuya can i rock this for my sig?

[FeFist]

I agree.

Manny last five wins are better than Sergio.

Martinez is 3-1-1, while Manny has completely dominated his opposition.

Clottey is better than Cintron.

Hatton win = Pavlik Win

Cotto win >>>Williams win

Dzin win > Margarito win

However the Martinez should have dominated and KO'd Cintron bit didn't and he also lost to Williams.

People are just hating but I'm glad The Ring and others aren't blinded but his 3 hot wins.

I don't think the difference between the Cotto win and the Williams win is that clear in Pacquiao's favour, I could argue that the Williams win was better.

If you are to look at the fighters overall skill, Cotto>Williams.

If you are to look at the fighters run at the time, Williams>>Cotto.

If you are to look at the fighters performance Williams>Pacquiao. That being said you could very well leave this criteria blank as dominating someone for 7 rounds is a completely different animal to knocking someone out in the second round.

It comes down to how important you think a fighters run is compared to their skill set.

With regards to Pacquiao's string of wins, it isn't as bad as some people make it out to be it's just that when a fighter reaches the top they get picked to pieces with a fine tooth comb, if you're to compare his record against most active boxers in the game he would surpass them.

At the same time I don't think his recent record is as great as people are making it out to be, the fights against Cotto and Hatton impressed me, the win against Clottey was solid but didn't do much for me. The Margarito fight as far as I'm concerned shouldn't have been made.

[southcentralcar]

pac is a bit.ch.. remember that

[kadyo's]

kuya can i rock this for my sig?

You just did, it's ok, I don'town it anyway. Napulot ko lang sa tabi tabi.

[BennyST]

very good post overall... but if you put emphasis on the 4 fighters involved.

None of them have lost to a non elite fighter which is the more accurate way of gauging whether they still have it or not.

Roy lost to bums. yeah for sure he is shot. But these 4. they only lost to people ranked within them.


Do you not consider Kostya Tsyu as lineal champ when Hatton beat him? What do you mean by Hatton shoud not have been the lineal champ?

Yes, absolutely. At that time, in 2005, he was the lineal champ. Since that time though, he never fought a number one contender or top ranked champion and moved up to 147. Somehow, through all that he was still considered the lineal champ?

It used to be that if you were the lineal champ, you had to actually fight the number one guys or you lost it. If you fought a bunch of dudes that meant nothing and weren't ranked in the number one or two spots at least once a year or moved up and fought in another division or lost a fight in another division without moving back down a fighting a number one guy across years, you were stripped and the number one and two fought for the title. Hatton defended the title he won from Tszyu twice in four years, moved up to 147 twice and from the time he beat Tszyu in 2005 only had one fight at 140 in the following two years until 2007 and that was against Carlos Maussa who wasn't even ranked in the top five. 95% of other fighters would have been stripped and not been considered lineal or ring champ within just those two years. Somehow he managed to do that for four years! The other 5% would have been fighters like Mayweather, Oscar Hatton or Pac (with his status now, not as it was then obviously) who are allowed to keep their titles or status due to the amount of fees and money they bring in and the rep their organisation gets.

The only reason Tszyu kept the status of lineal champ was because the whole time he was out of action and injured, the number one, and two fighters, both of whom were champions too, had been beaten by him. He had also beaten about half of the guys in the top ten and most of the top five. Hatton never did anything close to even resembling that. He never fought, in the time he was meant to be lineal champ, the number one or two contenders. In fact, for his whole reign he never fought anyone rated in the top five apart from Castillo (but we all know that was complete BS as Castillo had only one fight there which he probably should have lost and it wasn't against anyone close to the top five!).

The highest ranked fighter he fought in his whole reign was Malignaggi and he was rated fourth and that was about four years after winning the title. Funnily enough, the guy who he was most hassled to fight in Junior Witter was the longest reigning number one or two contender for his whole time and we all know how much he did to avoid that fight. He is one of the least deserving lineal champs in recent history.

A lineal champ is strongly pushed to do what someone like Marquez has done in recent years at lightweight. Beat the lineal champ. Fight the other guy who is considered the number one. Have a big fight in another division with a top name, but he came back and fought his number one rated contender. That's how you are meant to keep the lineal title. Most other fighters get stripped very quickly if they don't.

The entire time Tszyu was lineal champ, the number one fighter had been beaten by him and for most of the time, so had the number two guy. They were also actually the best fighters and the other champions. Hatton didn't do that once in four years. I can't fathom how he was still considered the lineal champ.

To put it very simply, when you don't have a single fight against the number one guy or the other 'top' fighter in the division and you don't defend your titles and have two fights out of the division across four years, it's purely bureaucratic and has to do with money not reality. Pure bull****.