Comments Thread For: Amir Khan Badly Hurt, Holds On To Beat Maidana

[Dave Rado]

Remember, even Mayweather got caught in his last outing.

Mayweather recovered immediately. Khan was on jelly legs for the rest of the round and was still a little wobbly in the next two rounds. Mayweather dominated every round of the fight after the round in which he was caught. Khan ran for the final two rounds and was in survival mode. Mayweather didn't take any more clean punches after the two that hurt him. Khan shipped many more hard punches, though not on the chin, fortunately for him. Mosley caught Mayweather near the start of the fight when Mosley was still fresh; and against any fighter who didn't have a great defence, he'd have followed up effectively and probably scored a knock-out. Maidana caught Khan in the late rounds, when Maidana was exhausted, not least due to that liver punch in the first round. If Maidana hadn't been so tired by the 10th, he'd almost certainly have knocked Khan out.

There is simply no comparison between the two fights.

Khan has amazing heart, which is why he survived even when he was almost out on his feet; but he still has a weak chin and always will have. But it's not a glass chin, and it never was. His KDs in the past were due to his extremely amateurish technique, pre-Roach, allied with a weak chin - but not to a glass chin.

He still doesn't know how to react effectively when hurt though. After he got caught, he didn't clinch effectively, didn't turn Maidana when trapped in the corner, sometimes moved back in straight lines instead of using lateral movement, didn't have enough head movement, and often just stood still and covered up, allowing Maidana to tee off on him. Admittedly it's hard to stick to a game plan when you're seeing stars, but he needs to practice those sort of defensive strategies to the point where they become instinctive.

Also, he was horribly vulnerable to the uppercut throughout the fight, and needs to do a lot of work on defending against that punch.

I don't understand the posters who are still saying Maidana was extremely slow and limited though. He showed great timing and accuracy, the ability to intelligently cut off the ring, and the ability to land big punches from very unexpected angles, which are hard to see coming. Those attributes more than compensated for his lack of speed. And I don't understand the posters who criticise Maidana's conditioning. Considering that liver punch, which would have knocked out many fighters, and considering how many hard punches he threw in every round, I'd say his conditioning was grade A. He never stopped coming forward and never stopped throwing bombs with real venom behind them, even when he was exhausted.

Maidana would be a very tough fight for any Jr Welterweight, even Bradley.

I'm also not sold on the weight drain theory of why Khan's chin has improved. As I said, I think the improvement can be fully explained by his improved technique under Roach's tutelage, without recourse to the weight drain theory; and contrary to what you said, Roach didn't move him up immediately - he had two fights at Lightweight with Roach, and didn't look as if he was struggling with his weight in either of those fights. The timing of his move to Jr Welterweight was dictated mainly by the fortuitous opportunity of a title shot against Kotelnik, whose style was made for Khan. There is no evidence I've seen that he'd have moved up so soon if it hadn't been for that opportunity - Roach had not been talking about moving up prior to that fight being made.

[LeadUppercut]

Mayweather recovered immediately. Khan was on jelly legs for the rest of the round and was still a little wobbly in the next two rounds. Mayweather dominated every round of the fight after the round in which he was caught. Khan ran for the final two rounds and was in survival mode. Mayweather didn't take any more clean punches after the two that hurt him. Khan shipped many more hard punches, though not on the chin, fortunately for him. Mosley caught Mayweather near the start of the fight when Mosley was still fresh; and against any fighter who didn't have a great defence, he'd have followed up effectively and probably scored a knock-out. Maidana caught Khan in the late rounds, when Maidana was exhausted, not least due to that liver punch in the first round. If Maidana hadn't been so tired by the 10th, he'd almost certainly have knocked Khan out.

There is simply no comparison between the two fights.

Khan has amazing heart, which is why he survived even when he was almost out on his feet; but he still has a weak chin and always will have. But it's not a glass chin, and it never was. His KDs in the past were due to his extremely amateurish technique, pre-Roach, allied with a weak chin - but not to a glass chin.

He still doesn't know how to react effectively when hurt though. After he got caught, he didn't clinch effectively, didn't turn Maidana when trapped in the corner, sometimes moved back in straight lines instead of using lateral movement, didn't have enough head movement, and often just stood still and covered up, allowing Maidana to tee off on him. Admittedly it's hard to stick to a game plan when you're seeing stars, but he needs to practice those sort of defensive strategies to the point where they become instinctive.

Also, he was horribly vulnerable to the uppercut throughout the fight, and needs to do a lot of work on defending against that punch.

I don't understand the posters who are still saying Maidana was extremely slow and limited though. He showed great timing and accuracy, the ability to intelligently cut off the ring, and the ability to land big punches from very unexpected angles, which are hard to see coming. Those attributes more than compensated for his lack of speed. He'd be a very tough fight for any Jr Welterweight, even Bradley.

I'm also not sold on the weight drain theory of why Khan's chin has improved. As I said, I think the improvement can be fully explained by his improved technique under Roach's tutelage, without recourse to the weight drain theory; and contrary to what you said, Roach didn't move him up immediately - he had two fights at Lightweight with Roach, and didn't look as if he was struggling with his weight in either of those fights. The timing of his move to Jr Welterweight was dictated mainly by the fortuitous opportunity of a title shot against Kotelnik, whose style was made for Khan. There is no evidence I've seen that he'd have moved up so soon if it hadn't been for that opportunity - Roach had not been talking about moving up prior to that fight being made.

Good points. And I pretty much agree, except for the weight drain part.

I think it is pretty obvious that the 5'10" Khan was drained at LW, and that he is heading for welter. But the technical improvements will definitely have helped him avoid getting hit with flush shots, and he does use his height/distance really well.

Either way, the glass-jaw myth, has been debunked.

Also, the comment above was in reply to this.....
" He was very hittable by a much slower and uncoordinated opponent. Khan is a brilliant young talent, I take nothing away from him but either his defense has to improve "

While I agreed, I pointed out that everyone can get caught, including Mayweather. Nobody compared the two fights, or either situation.

The point is, he is a kid with limited experience, he will be a work-in-progress for quite some time.

What we need to see from Khan are continual improvements, most of which will be determined by his environment. But this kid has the foundation to be a great fighter, he is just lacking experience and continual fine tuning.

We shall see.

[Dave Rado]

Good points. And I pretty much agree, except for the weight drain part.

I think it is pretty obvious that the 5'10" Khan was drained at LW, and that he is heading for welter.

If you mean that it's obvious because he's 5'10", I don't see why. Corrales was a career Super Featherweight and was 5′ 10½″. Hearns was an ATG Welterweight and was 6′ 1″ (okay he moved up, but not before getting a Hall of Fame-worthy record at Welter).

His chinnyness was evident long before the Prescott fight. He was knocked down and badly hurt by feather-fisted Limond and Gomez, and even as an amateur, so if you put his chin down to weight problems, you have to believe that he was weight drained for several years.

I'm sure he'd have moved up to Jr Welter not very long after he did even if the Kotelnik opportunity hadn't come up, but I don't think he was planning to move up right then until he got that gift horse of an opportunity - in fact Warren had been in negotiations to get him a fight with Marquez at Lightweight at that point, which means that his team didn't think he was weight drained at that point.

But the technical improvements will definitely have helped him avoid getting hit with flush shots, and he does use his height/distance really well.

There's far more to it than that, IMO. He used to throw recklessly, almost blindly, and his chin would move straight onto counters as a result, which doubled the effective impact of the punches coming his way. His balance used to be terrible, which affects punch resistance. He used to have seriously over-developed back muscles and spindly legs, and the first thing Roach did (while he was still a Lightweight) was change his training methods so that his back became less muscle bound and his legs became more sturdy. He's also done exercises to strengthen his neck muscles, which can help punch resistance to some extent. He didn't used to roll with punches and does now. So it's not just that he's far harder to hit cleanly than he used to be, his punch resistance is also far better because of the above improvements and others like them.

I'm not saying the weight increase hasn't helped at all, but I certainly don't think it's the main reason his chin has improved.

Also, the comment above was in reply to this.....
" He was very hittable by a much slower and uncoordinated opponent. Khan is a brilliant young talent, I take nothing away from him but either his defense has to improve "

I don't understand why anyone would call Maidana uncoordinated. Ungainly maybe, but you can't have his level of world class accuracy and timing if you're uncoordinated.

While I agreed, I pointed out that everyone can get caught, including Mayweather. Nobody compared the two fights, or either situation.

Okay but he was far more hittable than Floyd, especially after he was hurt, but also throughout the fight. And Floyd takes a punch far better than he does, even now.

The point is, he is a kid with limited experience, he will be a work-in-progress for quite some time.

What we need to see from Khan are continual improvements, most of which will be determined by his environment. But this kid has the foundation to be a great fighter, he is just lacking experience and continual fine tuning.

We shall see.

Agreed. I have felt that way ever since the Barrera fight.

[LeadUppercut]

If you mean that it's obvious because he's 5'10", I don't see why. Corrales was a career Super Featherweight and was 5′ 10½″. Hearns was an ATG Welterweight and was 6′ 1″ (okay he moved up, but not before getting a Hall of Fame-worthy record at Welter).

His chinnyness was evident long before the Prescott fight. He was knocked down and badly hurt by feather-fisted Limond and Gomez, and even as an amateur, so if you put his chin down to weight problems, you have to believe that he was weight drained for several years.

I'm sure he'd have moved up to Jr Welter not very long after he did even if the Kotelnik opportunity hadn't come up, but I don't think he was planning to move up right then until he got that gift horse of an opportunity - in fact Warren had been in negotiations to get him a fight with Marquez at Lightweight at that point, which means that his team didn't think he was weight drained at that point.



There's far more to it than that, IMO. He used to throw recklessly, almost blindly, and his chin would move straight onto counters as a result, which doubled the effective impact of the punches coming his way. His balance used to be terrible, which affects punch resistance. He used to have seriously over-developed back muscles and spindly legs, and the first thing Roach did (while he was still a Lightweight) was change his training methods so that his back became less muscle bound and his legs became more sturdy. He's also done exercises to strengthen his neck muscles, which can help punch resistance to some extent. He didn't used to roll with punches and does now. So it's not just that he's far harder to hit cleanly than he used to be, his punch resistance is also far better because of the above improvements and others like them.

I'm not saying the weight increase hasn't helped at all, but I certainly don't think it's the main reason his chin has improved.



I don't understand why anyone would call Maidana uncoordinated. Ungainly maybe, but you can't have his level of world class accuracy and timing if you're uncoordinated.



Okay but he was far more hittable than Floyd, especially after he was hurt, but also throughout the fight. And Floyd takes a punch far better than he does, even now.



Agreed. I have felt that way ever since the Barrera fight.

The example you quoted earlier is absolutely correct imho. Gomez and Limond both proved that Khan had been struggling at LW for years. I mean, you just can't compare Limond with Maidana.

Height was not the reason, just a pointer, and Freddie himself said that Khan was drained at lightweight. He is thickset, not a beanpole like a lot of those other guys, the over-developed back muscles that you referred to were a clear indicator to me exactly how much Khan had to lose to make LW.

IMO, Khan will be a large welterweight before he is 28.

Great points about the training though, Khan is a much improved fighter, but the fact that he has improved the strength in his legs is probably due in part to the extra weight/conditioning that his frame can carry at 140.

He simply could not be that well conditioned at 135, his program with Ariza would be focusing on weight-loss far more than strength training.

IMO, this kid will be even stronger at 147.

[Dave Rado]

The example you quoted earlier is absolutely correct imho. Gomez and Limond both proved that Khan had been struggling at LW for years. I mean, you just can't compare Limond with Maidana.

Limond can't punch hard, but Khan hung his chin out, kept his hands low, and walked into Limond's punches, doubling their impact; and then he didn't clinch or defend himself when he was hurt, which allowed Limond to follow up with a whole barrage of flush punches; and I believe that's the reason Limond a feather-fist was able to put him down and badly hurt him back then. I don't see how it proves anything about being weight drained.

Height was not the reason, just a pointer, and Freddie himself said that Khan was drained at lightweight.

He's saying that now but he wasn't saying it before Khan moved up. He clearly didn't think Khan was weight drained back then. As I say, Khan was in negotiations to fight Marquez at Lightweight when the Kotelnik opportunity came up and he took that instead. Roach wouldn't have allowed those negotiations to take place if he'd thought Khan was weight drained. Roach is being a bit revisionist now, IMO..

the over-developed back muscles that you referred to were a clear indicator to me exactly how much Khan had to lose to make LW.

He lost those over-developed back muscles before the Barrera fight, which was at Lightweight. They were a result of too much lifting weights.

IMO, Khan will be a large welterweight before he is 28.

He may well be, but that doesn't invalidate the points I made.

Great points about the training though, Khan is a much improved fighter, but the fact that he has improved the strength in his legs is probably due in part to the extra weight/conditioning that his frame can carry at 140.

Again, the improvement in his legs was noticeable in the Barrera fight.

[LeadUppercut]

Limond can't punch hard, but Khan hung his chin out, kept his hands low, and walked into Limond's punches, doubling their impact; and then he didn't clinch or defend himself when he was hurt, which allowed Limond to follow up with a whole barrage of flush punches; and I believe that's the reason Limond a feather-fist was able to put him down and badly hurt him back then. I don't see how it proves anything about being weight drained.

He's saying that now but he wasn't saying it before Khan moved up. He clearly didn't think Khan was weight drained back then. As I say, Khan was in negotiations to fight Marquez at Lightweight when the Kotelnik opportunity came up and he took that instead. Roach wouldn't have allowed those negotiations to take place if he'd thought Khan was weight drained. Roach is being a bit revisionist now, IMO..

He lost those over-developed back muscles before the Barrera fight, which was at Lightweight. They were a result of too much lifting weights.

He may well be, but that doesn't invalidate the points I made.

Again, the improvement in his legs was noticeable in the Barrera fight.

Amir was drained at 135.....

“First of all, I think we all know that I was 135 pounds when I come to Freddie,” said Khan. “I’m a dedicated fighter. I used to always make the weight. Regardless, it was so hard to make the weight. I used to kill myself to make 135 but I still made it, going into fights weak. It affects you. You can get hurt. I used to go into fights and I would feel weak. I wanted to win a title at 135. But when I came to Freddie, he told me it’s not a good division for me. I’m a big lightweight. I’m even a big junior welterweight. He said, ‘You should move up to 140 and I think you will be a better fighter.’ And that’s what we did. Soon as we did, I felt more confident in my weight. Not killing myself.”
~ Amir Khan

" Roach wouldn't have allowed those negotiations to take place if he'd thought Khan was weight drained. Roach is being a bit revisionist now, IMO "

Yes, Freddie did allow those negotiations to take place even though he knew that 135 was too low for Amir. The point is, they made the best decision, Kotelnik at 140 was a much better option for Amir than Marquez at 135. This interview was held just prior to the Kotelnik fight. Freddie said that he was aware that 135 was too low for Khan, and that making LW affected his punch resistance and weakened him.....
http://pacquiaolivestreaming.com/201...n-vs-kotelnik/