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**pasawayako** · 05-02-2010, 07:34 PM

Pound-For-Pound Top 20 Boxers Update, 5/10
Written by Tim Starks
Sunday, 02 May 2010 08:01

It was an exceptionally busy two months for some of the pound-for-pound best boxers in the world. Eight of the people on this list were in action since the last update, and four people who used to be on it aren't anymore.

I've issued a rare course correction from the last update, convinced by some of you that maybe I'd over-promoted someone last time around. No matter how consistent I try to be with this subjective dark art, it reaches its dark art tentacles into my guts and perverts me, corrupts me. Anyway, the ultimate standard remains how a boxer has fared against quality competition (especially of recent vintage), with activity level and rough estimates of talent figuring into the mix too.

But you're probably wondering: Was there a change at the top after the big Floyd Mayweather-Shane Mosley fight? Wonder no longer.

1. Manny Pacquiao (welterweight)

Mayweather’s win over Mosley gives him the best win of his career, and arguably a better win than any of Pacquiao’s, but it doesn’t fully eclipse anything Pacquiao has done for the totality of his career or even over the last couple years. Don’t forget that since around this time in 2009, Pacquiao has beaten two boxers widely ranked in the top 10 pound-for-pound (Miguel Cotto and Ricky Hatton) and a third ranked in some people’s top 20 (Joshua Clottey in March), plus he claimed record fourth lineal championship at junior welterweight and conquered two big welterweights. And none of that takes into consideration that he beat three boxers earlier in his career that arguably rank among the 50 greatest ever (Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez) and more besides. What Mayweather has done in the last year (and his career) is extremely good too – but for now, it narrows the gap between #1 and #2 rather than closes it. I used to think there wasn’t a debate about whether Pacquiao was the pound-for-pound king. Now there is. Hopefully, everyone involved takes it personally and decides to settle it in the ring. It’s THE fight in boxing.

2. Floyd Mayweather (welterweight)

Except that 2nd round pounding he took, Mayweather turned in perhaps his best performance in a fight against his best opponent. What more could you want? We had a feeling Mayweather's talent would rise to the occasion when presented with an opponent who was this good, and it did. If he did it more often, he'd be my pound-for-pound king. That I think Mayweather would likely beat Pacquiao is secondary -- the best fighters have to prove it. Pacquiao's proven it over and over again against the utmost competition. Mayweather, finally, is getting there. And he needs to get into the ring with Pacquiao to decide it once and for all -- blood tests and purse splits be damned. Find a way to get into the ring with the best opposition, Floyd. For the first time in eight years, you did Saturday. You can do it again.

3. Paul Williams (junior middleweight)

If “The Punisher” seems too high to you, I offer you two counterarguments: 1. He was #4 on my list and a few other sensible ones, and he benefits from Mosley’s drop; and 2. On short notice last year, he beat the man who two weekends ago claimed the middleweight championship and debuts in the top 10 of my list, Sergio Martinez. A rematch becomes perhaps the second-most desirable fight in all of boxing, but if Pacquiao and X can’t come to an agreement on a fight, Williams deserves to figure into the mix. I know, I know, nobody believes he can get to 147 at his height. But what do you want to bet he weighs less than 154 this week at the weigh-in for next weekend’s bout against Kermit Cintron? Anyway, I think he’s stuck at #3 until #1 and #2 square off, or he gets a shot at one of those men himself. (P.S., most of the above is clearly contingent on Williams beating Cintron.)

4. Chad Dawson (light heavyweight)

Except Bernard Hopkins, who has no interest in battling him, Dawson has cleared out the old guard at light heavyweight. That leaves the young guard, and he’s stepped up to the plate – he’s booked for an August fight against Jean Pascal that will determine the lineal, Ring magazine light heavyweight championship of the world. That might or might not be enough to move him into my #3 spot – but if he wins it, it sure won’t hurt. I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned lately that the win over Tomasz Adamek keeps looking better all the time, but it warrants mention again after Adamek got another nice notch on his belt in April.

5. Shane Mosley (welterweight)

How much to drop Mosley is a difficult question. I didn't drop Juan Manuel Marquez very much for losing to Mayweather, and Mosley fared better against Mayweather than Mosley did. It's tough to say why Mosley disappeared after that amazing 2nd round, but at least a big part of it was Mayweather, who really turned it up a notch in the 3rd and never let Mosley get back into things. It's at least possible Mosley aged overnight, but it's also possible -- and he said so himself -- that being out of the ring since January of 2009 affected his performance. His stamina wasn't where it usually is. So I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. In part because it's hard to imagine considering putting him beneath the next guy.

6. Wladimir Klitschko (heavyweight)

Everyone knows the heavyweight division is something of a wasteland, but Klitschko has done far too much for far too long and far too dominantly not to get top-10 pound-for-pound contention, with his March win over Eddie Chambers one of his best. Chambers was ranked #3 in the division, rightfully. Over the last five years, Klitschko has defeated eight top-10 heavyweights, plus several more over the course of his career. No one else has so thoroughly owned his division for such a stretch of time, and good luck finding someone who can knock him from his perch for years to come. Really, the only thing that could lead to a slide on my list is a prolonged stretch of inactivity and better available competition at lighter weights. That is, unless David Haye – the new #3 in the division, and the best blend of speed and power at heavy, with a pound-for-pound resume from his days at cruiserweight – can do him in. It’s plausible, but unlikely. And the fight may be difficult to make, given the animosity that’s built up and the strange negotiating tactics of Haye’s team. Klitschko takes Bernard Hopkins' spot, who exits because in the last year and a half, he's merely beaten a too-small and under-talented Enrique Ornelas and a shot Roy Jones, Jr., and he didn't look very good doing it. If he fights and beats a top opponent, he'll be due for restoration to the top 20.

7. Juan Manuel Marquez (lightweight)

As one-sided as the shellacking was that he took from Mayweather in September, and as long as he’s been outside the ring since, I still can’t bring myself to drop Marquez more yet because he was fighting two weight classes above the division where he’s the lineal champion and four classes above his most effective weight. He’s due for a rematch against Juan Diaz in July, where a win which doesn’t get him much in these standings what with Diaz losing two of his last three (and arguably the third, depending on whom you ask), but combined with his achievements before the Mayweather loss, it might be enough to hold off the charging hordes below for a while longer.

8. Sergio Martinez (middleweight)

I’d defended my refusal to include Martinez based on the point that his best win was over Alex Bunema. Yes, he deserved the win over Cintron. Yes, he very well may have deserved the win over Williams, and that he could fight on such even terms with him warranted pound-for-pound consideration. Yes, he looked like a force to be reckoned with. But still. Bunema. And could it be that he was somewhat to blame for not making matters more definitive against Williams and Cintron, a la Joshua Clottey’s near misses? Now, though, with a judge-certified April ass-kicking over a borderline top-10 pound-for-pound opponent in Pavlik, and the middleweight championship belt around his waist, he’s shot into my top 10. A rematch with Pavlik or Williams might imperil (or boost) his standing later, but today, I think #8 completely defensible.

9. Timothy Bradley (junior welterweight)

OK, here’s the thinking on a slight rejiggering. I got carried away when I put Juan Manuel Lopez so high last time around, and my positioning of Bradley is the major reason I reconsidered. Using my “what have they done in the last year” metric, I looked at Cotto, Ivan Calderon, Chris John and Nonito Donaire and saw Bradley right beneath them as ripe for a promotion. But then right above that group was Lopez, and as impressed as I was with Lopez’ win over Steve Luevano, I got to thinking I'd gone too far if you compare Bradley's achievements in the last year to Lopez'. Bradley's beaten better overall competition. He may be slightly vulnerable at this spot since he won't fight again until July.

10. Juan Manuel Lopez (featherweight)

**pasawayako** · 05-02-2010, 07:34 PM

Pound-For-Pound Top 20 Boxers Update, 5/10
Written by Tim Starks
Sunday, 02 May 2010 08:01

It was an exceptionally busy two months for some of the pound-for-pound best boxers in the world. Eight of the people on this list were in action since the last update, and four people who used to be on it aren't anymore.

I've issued a rare course correction from the last update, convinced by some of you that maybe I'd over-promoted someone last time around. No matter how consistent I try to be with this subjective dark art, it reaches its dark art tentacles into my guts and perverts me, corrupts me. Anyway, the ultimate standard remains how a boxer has fared against quality competition (especially of recent vintage), with activity level and rough estimates of talent figuring into the mix too.

But you're probably wondering: Was there a change at the top after the big Floyd Mayweather-Shane Mosley fight? Wonder no longer.

1. Manny Pacquiao (welterweight)

Mayweather�s win over Mosley gives him the best win of his career, and arguably a better win than any of Pacquiao�s, but it doesn�t fully eclipse anything Pacquiao has done for the totality of his career or even over the last couple years. Don�t forget that since around this time in 2009, Pacquiao has beaten two boxers widely ranked in the top 10 pound-for-pound (Miguel Cotto and Ricky Hatton) and a third ranked in some people�s top 20 (Joshua Clottey in March), plus he claimed record fourth lineal championship at junior welterweight and conquered two big welterweights. And none of that takes into consideration that he beat three boxers earlier in his career that arguably rank among the 50 greatest ever (Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez) and more besides. What Mayweather has done in the last year (and his career) is extremely good too � but for now, it narrows the gap between #1 and #2 rather than closes it. I used to think there wasn�t a debate about whether Pacquiao was the pound-for-pound king. Now there is. Hopefully, everyone involved takes it personally and decides to settle it in the ring. It�s THE fight in boxing.

2. Floyd Mayweather (welterweight)

Except that 2nd round pounding he took, Mayweather turned in perhaps his best performance in a fight against his best opponent. What more could you want? We had a feeling Mayweather's talent would rise to the occasion when presented with an opponent who was this good, and it did. If he did it more often, he'd be my pound-for-pound king. That I think Mayweather would likely beat Pacquiao is secondary -- the best fighters have to prove it. Pacquiao's proven it over and over again against the utmost competition. Mayweather, finally, is getting there. And he needs to get into the ring with Pacquiao to decide it once and for all -- blood tests and purse splits be damned. Find a way to get into the ring with the best opposition, Floyd. For the first time in eight years, you did Saturday. You can do it again.

3. Paul Williams (junior middleweight)

If �The Punisher� seems too high to you, I offer you two counterarguments: 1. He was #4 on my list and a few other sensible ones, and he benefits from Mosley�s drop; and 2. On short notice last year, he beat the man who two weekends ago claimed the middleweight championship and debuts in the top 10 of my list, Sergio Martinez. A rematch becomes perhaps the second-most desirable fight in all of boxing, but if Pacquiao and X can�t come to an agreement on a fight, Williams deserves to figure into the mix. I know, I know, nobody believes he can get to 147 at his height. But what do you want to bet he weighs less than 154 this week at the weigh-in for next weekend�s bout against Kermit Cintron? Anyway, I think he�s stuck at #3 until #1 and #2 square off, or he gets a shot at one of those men himself. (P.S., most of the above is clearly contingent on Williams beating Cintron.)

4. Chad Dawson (light heavyweight)

Except Bernard Hopkins, who has no interest in battling him, Dawson has cleared out the old guard at light heavyweight. That leaves the young guard, and he�s stepped up to the plate � he�s booked for an August fight against Jean Pascal that will determine the lineal, Ring magazine light heavyweight championship of the world. That might or might not be enough to move him into my #3 spot � but if he wins it, it sure won�t hurt. I�m pretty sure I�ve mentioned lately that the win over Tomasz Adamek keeps looking better all the time, but it warrants mention again after Adamek got another nice notch on his belt in April.

5. Shane Mosley (welterweight)

How much to drop Mosley is a difficult question. I didn't drop Juan Manuel Marquez very much for losing to Mayweather, and Mosley fared better against Mayweather than Mosley did. It's tough to say why Mosley disappeared after that amazing 2nd round, but at least a big part of it was Mayweather, who really turned it up a notch in the 3rd and never let Mosley get back into things. It's at least possible Mosley aged overnight, but it's also possible -- and he said so himself -- that being out of the ring since January of 2009 affected his performance. His stamina wasn't where it usually is. So I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. In part because it's hard to imagine considering putting him beneath the next guy.

6. Wladimir Klitschko (heavyweight)

Everyone knows the heavyweight division is something of a wasteland, but Klitschko has done far too much for far too long and far too dominantly not to get top-10 pound-for-pound contention, with his March win over Eddie Chambers one of his best. Chambers was ranked #3 in the division, rightfully. Over the last five years, Klitschko has defeated eight top-10 heavyweights, plus several more over the course of his career. No one else has so thoroughly owned his division for such a stretch of time, and good luck finding someone who can knock him from his perch for years to come. Really, the only thing that could lead to a slide on my list is a prolonged stretch of inactivity and better available competition at lighter weights. That is, unless David Haye � the new #3 in the division, and the best blend of speed and power at heavy, with a pound-for-pound resume from his days at cruiserweight � can do him in. It�s plausible, but unlikely. And the fight may be difficult to make, given the animosity that�s built up and the strange negotiating tactics of Haye�s team. Klitschko takes Bernard Hopkins' spot, who exits because in the last year and a half, he's merely beaten a too-small and under-talented Enrique Ornelas and a shot Roy Jones, Jr., and he didn't look very good doing it. If he fights and beats a top opponent, he'll be due for restoration to the top 20.

7. Juan Manuel Marquez (lightweight)

As one-sided as the shellacking was that he took from Mayweather in September, and as long as he�s been outside the ring since, I still can�t bring myself to drop Marquez more yet because he was fighting two weight classes above the division where he�s the lineal champion and four classes above his most effective weight. He�s due for a rematch against Juan Diaz in July, where a win which doesn�t get him much in these standings what with Diaz losing two of his last three (and arguably the third, depending on whom you ask), but combined with his achievements before the Mayweather loss, it might be enough to hold off the charging hordes below for a while longer.

8. Sergio Martinez (middleweight)

I�d defended my refusal to include Martinez based on the point that his best win was over Alex Bunema. Yes, he deserved the win over Cintron. Yes, he very well may have deserved the win over Williams, and that he could fight on such even terms with him warranted pound-for-pound consideration. Yes, he looked like a force to be reckoned with. But still. Bunema. And could it be that he was somewhat to blame for not making matters more definitive against Williams and Cintron, a la Joshua Clottey�s near misses? Now, though, with a judge-certified April ass-kicking over a borderline top-10 pound-for-pound opponent in Pavlik, and the middleweight championship belt around his waist, he�s shot into my top 10. A rematch with Pavlik or Williams might imperil (or boost) his standing later, but today, I think #8 completely defensible.

9. Timothy Bradley (junior welterweight)

OK, here�s the thinking on a slight rejiggering. I got carried away when I put Juan Manuel Lopez so high last time around, and my positioning of Bradley is the major reason I reconsidered. Using my �what have they done in the last year� metric, I looked at Cotto, Ivan Calderon, Chris John and Nonito Donaire and saw Bradley right beneath them as ripe for a promotion. But then right above that group was Lopez, and as impressed as I was with Lopez� win over Steve Luevano, I got to thinking I'd gone too far if you compare Bradley's achievements in the last year to Lopez'. Bradley's beaten better overall competition. He may be slightly vulnerable at this spot since he won't fight again until July.

10. Juan Manuel Lopez (featherweight)

**Talisayen** · 05-02-2010, 07:40 PM

Damn, Larry will be piss off if he sees this thread.

**R.Winky Wright** · 05-02-2010, 07:43 PM

yeah well we all know where he can find 1b p4p to prove his point I guess becasue if you haven't herd this song from floyd to manny these is

**pasawayako** · 05-02-2010, 08:02 PM

*****s are the only one putting floyd as the #1. nyahahahaahha

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