Manny Pacquiao Or Benny Leonard? Who's Greater?

[Khalid X]

pac most likely has a couple more fights in him and unless one of them in Mayweather, Pac won't even be mentioned with Leonard

Why do you feel that way? Not disagreeing but Pac could put the type of names on his resume and accomplish a few things that could possible put him ahead of Leonard IMO.

[S.G.]

pac most likely has a couple more fights in him and unless one of them in Mayweather, Pac won't even be mentioned with Leonard

A win over Mayweather still wouldn't put Pacquiao's CV above Leonard's.

He has wins over (multiple wins over some) Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh, Willie Ritchie, Johnny Kilbane, Rocky Kansas, Lew Tendler, Jack Britton and a draw with Ted (Kid) Lewis. Along with wins over a host of other top contenders from the time which won't make it into the HoF.

[S.G.]

Why not and how does he have one of the most stacked resumes of all time? Not disagreeing but I askingn from the perspective of a person who wants to be educated on Benny Leonard.

I feel he has alot of great wins against some of the best LW of his era, but didn't get wins against his two ATG peers (McLarin and Lewis)

Leonard was several years past it by the time McLarnin got to him. It'd been 7+ years since he last fought a top quality opponent, and most of those years he'd spent retired. He was described as "a pudgy, slow footed old man" during his comeback.

No shame in drawing with Lewis for the welterweight title as a career lightweight. I'm not greatly familiar with Lewis' career but I believe he was the bigger man.

Leonard's record is packed full of wins in legacy fights; it'd be very, very harsh to hold that draw at welterweight and that loss at the end of his career against him in my opinion.

[Khalid X]

A win over Mayweather still wouldn't put Pacquiao's CV above Leonard's.

He has wins over (multiple wins over some) Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh, Willie Ritchie, Johnny Kilbane, Rocky Kansas, Lew Tendler, Jack Britton and a draw with Ted (Kid) Lewis. Along with wins over a host of other top contenders from the time which won't make it into the HoF.

Playing devil's advocate and I'm not saying Pac is better but:

Leonard couldn't get wins against two of his ATG peers in McLarin and Lewis
Pac did get wins against two of his ATG peers in Barrera and Morales

all of those guys are good I'm not gonna lie but Pac has wins over Marquez, Cotto, Lebwaba, Hatton, Sasakul, Larios, Oscar De Le Hoya and could ,possible add Margarito, Mosley, Mayweather, and Valero.

Just pointing that out to show that Pac resume is no slouch either. Not just that but Pac could also end his career with

8 titles in 8 different classes
4 FOTY awards
7 lineals (maybe)
3 titles held in 3 different classes at the same time (only armstrong has done this

and a bunch of other "first time/most ever" accomplishments. I'm just pointing this out because those will be huge mental impressions on people who put these together, and while it may or may not happen...to say he has no chance to pass Leonard....I just can't agree.

[Khalid X]

Leonard was several years past it by the time McLarnin got to him. It'd been 7+ years since he last fought a top quality opponent, and most of those years he'd spent retired. He was described as "a pudgy, slow footed old man" during his comeback.

No shame in drawing with Lewis for the welterweight title as a career lightweight. I'm not greatly familiar with Lewis' career but I believe he was the bigger man.

Leonard's record is packed full of wins in legacy fights; it'd be very, very harsh to hold that draw at welterweight and that loss at the end of his career against him in my opinion.

Believe me bro I don't hold it against him, I was just bringing it up for discussion. I'm one of the few people (IMO) that doesn't hold losses too much against boxers because some of the greastest fighters of all times have losing records against their hall of fame peers....ala Pep going 1-4 with Sandler.

[murmagic]

unless pac stays around for many more years and beats floyd williams and moves up and beats a few top middleweights he wont surpass leonard

[S.G.]

Playing devil's advocate and I'm not saying Pac is better but:

Leonard couldn't get wins against two of his ATG peers in McLarin and Lewis
Pac did get wins against two of his ATG peers in Barrera and Morales

He failed to pick up wins in two of nine fights against IBHoF recognised fighters. Both under adverse circumstances.

Pacquiao's wins over Barrera and Morales are awesome wins but I wouldn't rate those two higher than the likes of Kilbane, Dundee, Welsh, Britton or Ritchie, nor would I consider the version of Morales that Pacquiao beat as close to his best as the boxers I named were when Leonard beat them.

So that's five scalps that are more impressive (to me) than Pacquiao's best scalp already.

Of the crop of IBHoF recognised fighters Leonard beat, this is how many times he beat them (according to boxrec):

Dundee IIII
Ritchie I
Welsh II
Kansas III
Tendler II
Kilbane I
Britton II

That's 15 wins over great fighters in or around their primes.

all of those guys are good I'm not gonna lie but Pac has wins over Marquez, Cotto, Lebwaba, Hatton, Sasakul, Larios, Oscar De Le Hoya and could ,possible add Margarito, Mosley, Mayweather, and Valero.

Again, all good wins. But how many of those would you consider all-time greats? And the ones that you do, would you place them above the guys Leonard beat? It's also possible that Pacquiao loses to his greatest adversary (Mayweather), or just doesn't fight him altogether - which would be a bigger dent on his record than the Leonard loss to McLarnin or the draw with Ted Kid Lewis. And while we're talking about deductions from legacies, how about Pacquiao losing to the best version of Morales he fought? That's significant I think considering a lot of people would call Pacquiao win over Morales his greatest up until this point.

Just pointing that out to show that Pac resume is no slouch either.

No kidding - it's exceptional. But we're comparing him to a bonafide top 10 pound-for-pound all time great here. In my view the greatest lightweight that ever lived.

Not just that but Pac could also end his career with

8 titles in 8 different classes
4 FOTY awards
7 lineals (maybe)
3 titles held in 3 different classes at the same time (only armstrong has done this

and a bunch of other "first time/most ever" accomplishments. I'm just pointing this out because those will be huge mental impressions on people who put these together, and while it may or may not happen...

That's all well and good, but I think the "who, where, when" is important when considering these things, so you have to take into account the differences between the two eras.

to say he has no chance to pass Leonard....I just can't agree.

Okay, nothing's impossible, so let me adjust my statement a bit to "it's highly improbable that Pacquiao can surpass Benny Leonard".

EDIT: and I know I have a Mayweather signature but trust me I'm not knocking on Pacquiao here; rather bigging up Leonard and paying him the respect I feel he deserves.

[B.U.R.N.E.R]

Jesus Christ how is Pac even mentioned with Benny?

[SorceryatCaesar]

Leonard (Sugar Ray)

you got the wrong Leonard.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sugar-Ray-Leonard-and-Marvelous-Marvin-Hagler/104980536204040?ref=ts

[SteveJarvey]

this is not a fantasy fight you idiot....TS is asking who's greater.....****ing dumb *******

Another jealous hater