Comments Thread For: Facing Ali: A Thorough Review

[edgarg]

So Liston, Foreman, Norton, Frazier "were too old, or too old and not that good anyway" when Ali beat them?

Yes, exactly.

Nobody knew how old Liston was, it was reckoned he was pushing 40. He was illiterate, also was firmly in the grip of the Mob, there were all kinds of investigations into his "managerial" background, his management was changed, a couple of Mafia guys went to jail, there were hearings etc, and as I recall, the only way that Liston would be able to "re-habilitate" himself and get the respect due to the World Heavyweight Champ , was that he would renounce all ties to the gangsters, learn to read, and place himself in the hands of a local parish priest, Father "some-one-or-other", who would "brainwash" and thoroughly cleanse him.

I've never come across such interference by outside interests into the handling of a World Champ.

The guy used to be a :"legbreaker " in his spare time, before he became champ. The whole situation, whilst it was as I'm telling you, was completely "unreal", and I'm being very brief, and only touching the outside edges of what was going on then.

For both fights with Ali, Liston didn't really train, {and gamblers are reputed to have won a fortune on both fights}. For the SECOND fight, he supposedly dedicated himself to train, and the rumours were that he was in his best condition ever, that I believe he was strongly fancied to win.

As we all know, he went down, and out, barely into the 1st rd. to what has always been referred to, as "the phantom punch". Actually there WAS a punch, but an arm one, very light.... and the situation was complicated by the fact that Jersey Joe Walcott was the ref...VERY inexperienced, AND.......whilst counting, he stopped for a few seconds, and started again, during which time Liston, who waited until he was counted out before moving, got up, none the worse for the "punch", and Walcott signalled to go ahead with the fight...which they did with, on Liston's part, great hesitancy.

THEN,... during the renewed fight, Walcott was called over to the ring apron, by Nat Fleischer, the RING Founder and publisher, the MAJOR recognised boxing expert in the world, who shouted at him that Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds, he kept pointing to his watch.

SOooooo, Walcott got between the fighters and stopped it giving Ali the KO win...............

Stunk to high heaven......

Just my recollection, going on memory alone.

[edgarg]

Yes, exactly.

Nobody knew how old Liston was, it was reckoned he was pushing 40. He was illiterate, also was firmly in the grip of the Mob, there were all kinds of investigations into his "managerial" background, his management was changed, a couple of Mafia guys went to jail, there were hearings etc, and as I recall, the only way that Liston would be able to "re-habilitate" himself and get the respect due to the World Heavyweight Champ , was that he would renounce all ties to the gangsters, learn to read, and place himself in the hands of a local parish priest, Father "some-one-or-other", who would "brainwash" and thoroughly cleanse him.

I've never come across such interference by outside interests into the handling of a World Champ.

The guy used to be a :"legbreaker " in his spare time, before he became champ. The whole situation, whilst it was as I'm telling you, was completely "unreal", and I'm being very brief, and only touching the outside edges of what was going on then.

For both fights with Ali, Liston didn't really train, {and gamblers are reputed to have won a fortune on both fights}. For the SECOND fight, he supposedly dedicated himself to train, and the rumours were that he was in his best condition ever, that I believe he was strongly fancied to win.

As we all know, he went down, and out, barely into the 1st rd. to what has always been referred to, as "the phantom punch". Actually there WAS a punch, but an arm one, very light.... and the situation was complicated by the fact that Jersey Joe Walcott was the ref...VERY inexperienced, AND.......whilst counting, he stopped for a few seconds, and started again, during which time Liston, who waited until he was counted out before moving, got up, none the worse for the "punch", and Walcott signalled to go ahead with the fight...which they did with, on Liston's part, great hesitancy.

THEN,... during the renewed fight, Walcott was called over to the ring apron, by Nat Fleischer, the RING Founder and publisher, the MAJOR recognised boxing expert in the world, who shouted at him that Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds, he kept pointing to his watch.

SOooooo, Walcott got between the fighters and stopped it giving Ali the KO win...............

Stunk to high heaven......

Just my recollection, going on memory alone.

I forgot to mention that, just before the second fight, with Liston supposedly at his very best, the fight was postponed because Ali got a sudden attack of appendicitis. [Again] Supposedly, unknown at the time, Liston lost his fitness edge, and stopped training, never to get into that condition again.

[edgarg]

I've seen both... both are good... Assault in the Ring and Facing Ali...

Facing Ali is also not the typical Ali movie where he gets praised by writers or anything... his opponents tell the stories of their live... at which timeframe they fought him etc. Of course it is about Ali but it as much as it is also about his opponents...

@Edgard... the Cleveland Williams fight is not his best fight. If they say that it shows him at his peak... they mean his skills... nobody says that Cleveland Williams is his signature win or anything... it was just a beatiful display of boxing skills the way Ali interpreted them... the other thing is your opinion... but to tell you the truth... if Ali hasn't the right to call himself the Greatest who else does... technique wise he was beatiful to watch... in his prime he was so sharp... his jab was great on top of that he was not a good boxer he was also a warrior... his chin took everything... his heart dude, his character... I don't know who else should be the greatest if not him... he of course had the personality to go with it... even though he said some bad things who were really bad and nothing that a human being should say, his cheating on wifes etc... That's all true... but he also meant a lot to a lot of ppl... I think he touched enough lives so that he can be forgiven for that...

Happy holidays

Thank you for the Holiday wishes which I heartily reciprocate.

In actual fact, with no offence meant, you are a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

I've seen and heard, literally dozens of times that the Williams fight was his apogee, and also sometimes the Zora Folley fight. In both of these fights he had tremendous advantages. This is NEVER mentioned.

It's natural, I suppose, that a sort of "aura" bathes certain public figures, an unworldly sort of reputation and fame, legends begin to be formed, and the true facts are smoothed over.

I believe that I am correct here, and a little "detective" work, and objective research into, say, Boxrec, would undoubtedly support my assertions.

If I am wrong in this matter, I apologise, but I believe that I m not wrong,.......in this matter anyway.

Thank you again for your good wishes.

[TheGreatA]

I must say I found Ron Lyle's comments the most interesting. I've heard Foreman, Holmes, Frazier talk about their careers and their fights with Ali numerous times but I hadn't heard much of Lyle. It was of course nice to hear of Terrell, Leon Spinks, Cooper and Shavers as well.

To me the one thing that the documentary illustrated the most was how all of Ali's opponents were determined to give their very best effort in order to defeat Ali. It's the kind of ambition that you rarely see in today's heavyweight boxing.

[edgarg]

Thank you for the Holiday wishes which I heartily reciprocate.

In actual fact, with no offence meant, you are a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

I've seen and heard, literally dozens of times that the Williams fight was his apogee, and also sometimes the Zora Folley fight. In both of these fights he had tremendous advantages. This is NEVER mentioned.

It's natural, I suppose, that a sort of "aura" bathes certain public figures, an unworldly sort of reputation and fame, legends begin to be formed, and the true facts are smoothed over.

I believe that I am correct here, and a little "detective" work, and objective research into, say, Boxrec, would undoubtedly support my assertions.

If I am wrong in this matter, I apologise, but I believe that I m not wrong,.......in this matter anyway.

Thank you again for your good wishes.

I forgot to mention [again, I'm getting old and absent minded] Ali's "technique" was torn to pieces by all the boxing experts, trainers, fighters etc. They said he had literally no technique, that he was just fast enough to pull his head STRAIGHT back [a huge "no-no} and avoid a punch, but that he would slow down and then things would be different. This is exactly what happened.

Fleischer, the acknowledged expert, died in 1972, so Ali was Champ during his lifetime, and he'd had about 35 fights [or thereabouts] by then, had been through all his ****** craparoo which caused him to ******ly ruin his career. No doubt about it, he was a little unbalanced.

Fleischer said that of all the heavyweights he'd seen, since Jim Jefferies, that Jack Johnson was the best. This was strongly supported by none other than "Chappie" Blackburn, the trainer and teacher of Joe Louis.

Neither of them ever changed their opinions.

[Grand Champ]

Dec 29. huh? I'm really gonna get this. I've waited so long.

[Chew BackAtacha]

What a film. I downloaded it online, im definently definently going to pay for the dvd, whoever made it deserves the royalties, its a piece of art

I fought Chuvalos life story was tragic. HIs wife and two sons killing themselves....and then he tells the stories of the drug addictions in the family....really struck a chord. and he just sits and tells the stories straight faced....guys tough, not just in the ring. Ron Lyle as well, surprising, guys articulate, when he spoke his voice resonated, HBO should get him to do commentry, seriously, if someone was to say which former Ali opponent was a HBO commentator on this film, i wouldn't have said George Foreman if i didnt know.