the REAL matchup analysis Pac vs PBF

[Unbiased]

I've seen many threads over the last couple months about how is Pac/PBF gonna deal with PBF/Pac's speed, power, head movement, etc etc etc.

Of all these matchup threads about how the fight is going to end up panning out, I still don't think the true heart of the question has been addressed at all. To me the speed, counterpunching, and everything else that has been covered aren't what really matter.


This is how it is:


Pac throws in nonstop combinations like nobody Floyd ever faced. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but in order to beat Floyd you have to get inside and outwork him. You're never going to land consistently and cleanly against a defense like Floyd's so the best option will be to outwork him. The most recent analogy I can think of is Calzaghe's gameplan against Bhop. I guarantee you if PBF and Pac ever fight that WILL be the gameplan. Combinations are harder to counter than are single shots and Manny will come in looking to smother PBF with combinations to make it harder to time his counterpunching.

If he doesn't get him with quality, he will overcome him with quantity. If 3 or 4 shots miss, at least one will get through. That will be the mindset for Pac and Roach guaranteed. They're not gonna sit at jab range like JMM did against Floyd. Anyone who does that against Floyd is asking to get their ears boxed off. Especially with the big height and reach advantage that Manny will be giving up to Floyd. (he is not JLCastillo)


Secondly:

And this is where that big question arises. Many fighters have found themselves at this crossroads against Floyd, and failed to deliver. Hatton got inside on Floyd, and found his offense negated by Floyd's inside defense. The shoulder roll, the "leverage" forearm, and Floyd's tucked chin and shoulder negated everything Hatton threw at him. Same with JMM when he got inside and same with every other fighter that got within that range against Floyd.

Question is will Manny find the same roadblock everyone else did once they got there? I'd have to answer with a maybe. Manny being a southpaw makes the angles different for Floyd's shoulder roll. Also Manny has that talent that not many other fighters have in that he can throw with power from all angles with both hands. And punching from ANGLES will be that necessity to find openings against that shoulder roll from close range. So from that point on who knows?

What do you guys think?

[oaba09]

Excelent post!

[Bhopreign]

Pac was frustrated from trying to walk Cotto down in the late rounds and couldnt get to him until Cotto stopped moving, what makes you think it will be any different against Floyd.

[Horus]

Do you understand that Manny has never fought Anything like Floyd Mayweather in his career?

Speed: Is a wash because they both are bullets in their own right
Handspeed: Mayweather
Defense: Mayweather
Offense:Manny
RING GENERALSHIP: Mayweather

Mayweather can also fight out of the southpaw stance, his favorite punch is the left hook..

omg, get me started....

Floyd Mayweather : The ‘Sweet Science’
Steve Coleman

For me what makes boxing the ‘Sweet Science’ is not two guys just slugging it out in a 'see who falls first' scenario. It is seeing some real skill and artistry in the ring.

In Boxing defense is not often given the credit it deserves and Floyd's defense is one of the best that I have ever seen. The only other boxers whose defense is similar in some respects is James Toney.

1. Mayweather's defense


Key to Mayweather's defense is the fact that he is always moving as well as the rhythm,speed and smoothness of his movements, this is what makes this defense effective.

All the while his opponent is punching.
Floyd is

• rolling,
• slipping,
• pivoting at the waist,
• feinting,
• bobbing and weaving,
• constantly displaying various ‘modes’ of movement .

The rhythm of the rolling is very interesting because most opponents alternate their punches in a very predictable way, only occasionally doubling up with the same hand in the middle of flurries.


When his body is turned to his right Floyd's left shoulder usually rolls up high to deflect punches and sometimes additionally he uses his left arm to deflect punches, it depends on the angle of the punch. Shots to this left side of his body are usually deflected upward and/or in front of him. When Mayweather's body is turned to the left his right hand is held up high with his elbow tucked in, so these shots get blocked also, a few well placed body shots can get in but Floyd is already rolling after the first punch connects.

On the rare occasion where a fighter does double up with the same hand Floyd usually catches this and improvises by adjusting his rhythm with a series of 'changes of direction' in his rolling. The thing to notice is the timing, all fighters have a rhythm to their movements which can be timed by an experienced opponent after several rounds of boxing.
2.Two different overall rhythmic forms:

1. the rhythm of offensive motion
2. the rhythm of defensive motion.

There are usually two different overall rhythmic forms, what I call the set-up rhythm
(preparing to punch or waiting to counterpunch, depending on the style of the boxer)
the rhythm of offensive motion and the rhythm of defensive motion.

However Floyd, like many great boxers varies these rhythms in subtle ways that are difficult for opponents to time, and he can seamlessly flow from one rhythmic form to the next without any break in the forms. Usually the opponent is not even aware that the transition has occurred until it is too late.


3.The name of the game is not aggressiveness, it is 'effective aggressiveness'.

Most of Floyd's Opponents punches get deflected and do not do much damage. Also use up a lot of energy in the process.
It is tiring and frustrating to punch at a target that constantly making you miss.

What constantly surprises me is the ignorance of the HBO commentators Jim Lampley,and Larry Merchant They kept talking about that Floyd should stay off the ropes. Now these HBO cats have seen so many fights they should know certain techniques by now.

4.Floyd Rest on The Ropes:

First of all Floyd get's hit with very few punches when he is on the ropes. Many times during Floyd's fights Floyd would rest while letting His Opponents flail away at him, this is a calculated ploy that only works because of the nature of Floyd's defensive skills.

Sometimes Floyd lays on the ropes, sometimes he stands in the middle of the ring right in front of his opponent, in neither case opponents rarely actually connects with thier punches in significant numbers.

Floyd's sense of the flow of a fight is fantastic.

5.Staying 'in the pocket',

When Floyd stands 'in the pocket', meaning that Mayweather was so close to His Opponent that they can not get the proper leverage on their punches.
There is an optimum distance that most fighters need to execute effectively.



6.The Science of Floyd's Offense

Offensively Floyd, 'place' his shots, he is not just wasting energy throwing punches. Even when he is in these defensive stances he is looking for well placed shots in the middle of the other boxer's flurries Notice that his eyes are wide open and they are seeing everything that is happening.
With many other top fighters this is not the case.

It is a natural reflex to close your eyes when an object is coming at your face and great boxers train to counter this tendency.

In the Joel Casamayor vs. Diego Corrales fight both boxers had defensive lapses while concentrating on offensive and there were moments when both fighters closed their eyes while punching.

Shane Mosley also closed his eyes a lot and flinched when Vernon Forrest had him against the ropes.

7.The Science of Movement

Changes of speed and direction, pivoting and spinning, dipping, rocking, backpedaling, sidestepping, feinting, weaving, side-slipping, angles––all are part of a repertoire of constantly shifting balancing mannerisms designed to alter the perspective of the observer, a kind of slick motion geometry. I call these various types of counterbalancing movement techniques ‘modalities of rhythm’.

This tradition has always been passed down from master to student mainly through experiencing the ‘feel’ of these modalities as well as using analogy to pass on information. However it is the insights that are gained through these experiences and the ability to execute that creates masters.


Floyd Mayweather Has Mastered The ‘Sweet Science’

[Unbiased]

Pac was frustrated from trying to walk Cotto down in the late rounds and couldnt get to him until Cotto stopped moving, what makes you think it will be any different against Floyd.

and I'm not saying that Pac will beat Floyd. The point of my original post is to pose a question that I feel has not been addressed in the other matchup threads.

I see Pac and Floyd getting to the juncture that I explained. THEN I'm asking what will happen at that point. I really can't say myself.

[SkillspayBills]

Good analysis man. I know I am talking a bit of **** but thats just to get Pac stans angry. This won't be a cake walk for either man, this will be a fantastic fight. I just think Floyd has certain tools to beat Manny over 12. They have never faced a fighter like each other before, the better adapter will win.

[screwhead1]

the thing about floyd is his corner...roger knows his ****...he's been off about pacquaio...but one thing that he is good at is telling floyd what to do when readjusting...and floyd (unlike many or damn near all fighters) listens to the T...this makes it extremely hard to fight him cause for 12 rounds, you might fight 12 different fights...

manny has unbelievable pressure tactics...the one thing that he will have to do to even consider knocking down floyd is to make him throw shots and leave himself open for a counter...something that mayweather barely does...but it is possible...oscar tried to throw random flurries at the beginning of their fight and got through...but he got discouraged (and rightly so due to the lack of damage)...after that...it was almost expected when he threw and mayweather was able to adjust accordingly...but manny has some serious power in his shots...he clocked the **** out of cotto...the problem is that while those shots were flush and to the lower part of cotto's head...by the neck...mayweather rarely gets hit by those types of punches...manny is going to have to figure how how to best attack him with a punch that can't be weakened by floyds body or shoulder movement and attempt to ware him down from there...

if manny tries to throw long combination's...floyd will be alert after every punch...marquez and oscar threw long combos...more than 4 or 5 punches and mayweather was responsive to damn near everyone of them...if manny tries that...he runs the risk of slowing down after punch X...leaving floyd to counter at opportunity Y...and floyd won't be looking for just a random shot...he will find something that will completely disrupt manny's combo...he is going to have to find a better way to unload on floyd...cause the second he gets sloppy...the counter becomes more of a mandatory thing against him...and after last night...manny can be open for them damn near an entire fight...

[Unbiased]

Yo Horus,

I didn't need to see that word document you call a post. You probably had it saved up for a moment like this huh?

Secondly, all the information that you have in there has nothing to do with my post so I can't even really consider it a response. It's more of a wikipedia article or a page out of "floyd mayweather for dummys" than it is in any way a coherent post.



My question is, "in the pocket" will Manny be effective against Floyd? Because I'm assuming that is where the fight will end up. That is where the problem lies.

Everyone who has got in the pocket against Floyd seems to have had no effect despite being within half an arm reach away. Will Pac suffer the same fate? I would normally say yes. But the odd variables that Pac has going for him that the others didn't have are:

1) Manny is a southpaw

2) Manny has power in both hands AND can throw bombs from all extreme twisting, turning, and contorting angles

[Horus]

Yo Horus,

I didn't need to see that word document you call a post. You probably had it saved up for a moment like this huh?

Secondly, all the information that you have in there has nothing to do with my post so I can't even really consider it a response. It's more of a wikipedia article or a page out of "floyd mayweather for dummys" than it is in any way a coherent post.



My question is, "in the pocket" will Manny be effective against Floyd? Because I'm assuming that is where the fight will end up. That is where the problem lies.

Everyone who has got in the pocket against Floyd seems to have had no effect despite being within half an arm reach away. Will Pac suffer the same fate? I would normally say yes. But the odd variables that Pac has going for him that the others didn't have are:

1) Manny is a southpaw

2) Manny has power in both hands AND can throw bombs from all extreme twisting, turning, and contorting angles

watch this video and FLOYD HIMSELF tells you how he deals with southpaws:






Key to Mayweather's defense is the fact that he is always moving as well as the rhythm,speed and smoothness of his movements, this is what makes this defense effective.

All the while his opponent is punching.
Floyd is

• rolling,
• slipping,
• pivoting at the waist,
• feinting,
• bobbing and weaving,
• constantly displaying various ‘modes’ of movement .

The rhythm of the rolling is very interesting because most opponents alternate their punches in a very predictable way, only occasionally doubling up with the same hand in the middle of flurries.


When his body is turned to his right Floyd's left shoulder usually rolls up high to deflect punches and sometimes additionally he uses his left arm to deflect punches, it depends on the angle of the punch. Shots to this left side of his body are usually deflected upward and/or in front of him. When Mayweather's body is turned to the left his right hand is held up high with his elbow tucked in, so these shots get blocked also, a few well placed body shots can get in but Floyd is already rolling after the first punch connects.

On the rare occasion where a fighter does double up with the same hand Floyd usually catches this and improvises by adjusting his rhythm with a series of 'changes of direction' in his rolling. The thing to notice is the timing, all fighters have a rhythm to their movements which can be timed by an experienced opponent after several rounds of boxing.
2.Two different overall rhythmic forms:

1. the rhythm of offensive motion
2. the rhythm of defensive motion.

There are usually two different overall rhythmic forms, what I call the set-up rhythm
(preparing to punch or waiting to counterpunch, depending on the style of the boxer)
the rhythm of offensive motion and the rhythm of defensive motion.

However Floyd, like many great boxers varies these rhythms in subtle ways that are difficult for opponents to time, and he can seamlessly flow from one rhythmic form to the next without any break in the forms. Usually the opponent is not even aware that the transition has occurred until it is too late.

7.The Science of Movement

Changes of speed and direction, pivoting and spinning, dipping, rocking, backpedaling, sidestepping, feinting, weaving, side-slipping, angles––all are part of a repertoire of constantly shifting balancing mannerisms designed to alter the perspective of the observer, a kind of slick motion geometry. I call these various types of counterbalancing movement techniques ‘modalities of rhythm’.

This tradition has always been passed down from master to student mainly through experiencing the ‘feel’ of these modalities as well as using analogy to pass on information. However it is the insights that are gained through these experiences and the ability to execute that creates masters.


Floyd Mayweather Has Mastered The ‘Sweet Science’

[Unbiased]

the thing about floyd is his corner...roger knows his ****...he's been off about pacquaio...but one thing that he is good at is telling floyd what to do when readjusting...and floyd (unlike many or damn near all fighters) listens to the T...this makes it extremely hard to fight him cause for 12 rounds, you might fight 12 different fights...

manny has unbelievable pressure tactics...the one thing that he will have to do to even consider knocking down floyd is to make him throw shots and leave himself open for a counter...something that mayweather barely does...but it is possible...oscar tried to throw random flurries at the beginning of their fight and got through...but he got discouraged (and rightly so due to the lack of damage)...after that...it was almost expected when he threw and mayweather was able to adjust accordingly...but manny has some serious power in his shots...he clocked the **** out of cotto...the problem is that while those shots were flush and to the lower part of cotto's head...by the neck...mayweather rarely gets hit by those types of punches...manny is going to have to figure how how to best attack him with a punch that can't be weakened by floyds body or shoulder movement and attempt to ware him down from there...

if manny tries to throw long combination's...floyd will be alert after every punch...marquez and oscar threw long combos...more than 4 or 5 punches and mayweather was responsive to damn near everyone of them...if manny tries that...he runs the risk of slowing down after punch X...leaving floyd to counter at opportunity Y...and floyd won't be looking for just a random shot...he will find something that will completely disrupt manny's combo...he is going to have to find a better way to unload on floyd...cause the second he gets sloppy...the counter becomes more of a mandatory thing against him...and after last night...manny can be open for them damn near an entire fight...

great point about the combinations bro. I agree that will be another thing for both of these fighters to be aware of. Even though I see combinations as Pac's initial strategy to make it harder for Floyd to time him and possibly keep Floyd out of rhythm. Floyd could just take advantage of Manny getting sloppy and discouraged if Pac can't find the mark.

Another big thing that could make Pac an easy target of PBF's sharp counterpunching is that Pac often gets off balance after he throws his combinations. You often see his footwork stumbling afterwards. Possibly because he's so damn punch happy