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Pound-For-Pound Top 20 List Update, October 2009
Pound-For-Pound Top 20 List Update, October 2009
by tim-starks on October 22, 2009
It’s been two months since my last update of the list of the best fighters in the world, regardless of weight, and some pound-for-pound players have been in action during that time. What makes sense on updating these things? After a change? Every month? Dunno, but I haven’t figured out how to post a picture yet on the new blog platform, so just know that my pound-for-pound list mascot, Rene Descartes (not Rod Stewart) is available to you via hyperlink.
The biggest issues to deal with are the Floyd Mayweather-Juan Manuel Marquez bout from September, and where to place four fighters whose resumes are considerable but whose best days appear to be well behind them. As usual, here’s my lengthy diatribe on how I compose my pound-for-pound lists. As usual, I encourage you to post your own list upon your completion of the reading of mine below.
1. Manny Pacquiao, welterweight. I know for some there is a debate about whether to replace Pacquiao with Mayweather, but it wasn’t a debate for me. I place a heavy emphasis on resume, particularly more recent fights, with “how a fighter looks to me in the ring” meaning a good deal less because it’s far more theoretical and much less empirical. Typically, I focus on the last two years. In that regard, Pacquiao’s wins are more impressive. He beat a diminished and disinterested Marco Antonio Barrera in October of 2007 at junior lightweight; narrowly defeated a very nearly at his best version of Juan Manuel Marquez in March of 2008 at junior lightweight; scored a dominant win over a quality if not overly talented lightweight, David Diaz, in July of 2008; demolished a faded and weight-drained but significantly bigger Oscar De La Hoya at welterweight; and demolished a possibly diminished Ricky Hatton this year, fighting at Hatton’s ideal junior welterweight. Over the same period, Mayweather has a decisive and destructive but competitive 2007 win over a blown-up welterweight but prime version of Hatton; and a comprehensive September win at welterweight over a very blown-up, past-his-prime Marquez. In his last three fights, just for bonus points, Pacquiao also passes the “looks pretty freaking incredible in the ring to me” test, moving up in weight and looking better each fight after the other. So, Pacquiao is clearly #1. That could change after Nov. 14 if he loses when he steps up against a welterweight with a lot more in his tank than De La Hoya could offer last year, Miguel Cotto. I think it’s quite clear cut that Pacquiao should be the #1 man right now, though. And if he beats Cotto, somebody’d have to do something pretty ridiculous for me to consider removing Pacquiao from the #1 slot.
2. Floyd Mayweather, welterweight. I thought of putting Mayweather lower, because the “recent fights” resume of some of the fighters beneath him is superior. But his career resume is awfully good, even if the best wins come in 2002 and prior, and he definitely looks like one of the handful of best fighters on the planet, even after his long layoff. He doesn’t get his #1 spot back just because he had it before retiring in 2008. He was already in danger of losing it on my list to Pacquiao even then, since Mayweather’s inactivity was hurting him in my books and since Pacquiao was doing so much good resume-building work. And I don’t buy this “he was pound-for-pound king before he retired, and he hasn’t lost since” line. How many years of inactivity before you take him off the list? What if he retires in 2010 and then doesn’t fight again until 2015? He isn’t automatically pound-for-pound king again, is he? Nope, he has to fight for that to take it back. As of now, it doesn’t sound like he’s thinking of taking the kind of fights that would get him back to the #1 spot — he says he’s “not going to wait” for the winner of Pacquiao-Cotto, and he’s not interested in getting into the ring with Shane Mosley “yet,” and the only name anyone who works with him has thrown out there is Saul Alvarez, a 19-year-old prospect whom a win over would prove nothing, nothing at all. As of now, Mayweather’s best chance of moving back into his old home is a Pacquiao loss, but even that doesn’t guarantee it for reasons I’ll get to in just a little bit.
3. Shane Mosley, welterweight. If Mosley was more active in 2009, even against moderate competition, I think he’d have a very strong argument for deserving the #2 slot. His win over Antonio Margarito in January was one of the year’s most impressive performances, but he won’t fight again until this coming January, assuming that Andre Berto fight gets finalized, like, ever. (The way things are going right now, it may not.) Depending on how things shake out between now and then, a win over Berto could give him consideration for the #1 slot. It’s one of the more disappointing stories of 2009 that Mosley hasn’t been able to get into the ring with anyone of note, be it Pacquiao, Cotto, Mayweather or even Joshua freakin’ Clottey coming off a loss. It’s a combination of him looking too good, other people offering higher pay at lower risk and HBO jerking him around for no reason at all.
4. Paul Williams, middleweight. Williams moves up one slot only because light heavyweight Bernard Hopkins, my previous #4, falls out of the rankings since I have a rule about one year of inactivity. Hopkins fights again in December, so he’ll move back onto the list at a very high spot when and if he wins that tune-up fight against Enrique Ornelas, but Williams might have been due to pass him anyway. He’d had a really gangbusters fight slotted for December himself, against Kelly Pavlik, that, had he won it, would have been good enough to move Williams into my top two. But Pavlik has pulled out of that date once again, leaving Williams looking for a replacement opponent who almost certainly won’t bring the same credentials or cache to the table. Sergio Martinez is probably the most attractive available foe, and beating him would give Williams a chance to move up, but nothing like a win over Pavlik would’ve given him.
5. Miguel Cotto, welterweight. Cotto also moves up one because of Hopkins’ drop. If he beats Pacquiao, though, I think you can make a case for appointing Cotto the pound-for-pound king. It kind of depends. We don’t really know if Pacquiao is a quality welterweight based on what he’s accomplished so far, so if Cotto’s size is a major factor in this hypothetical win — which should be apparent to the eye if it is — it takes a little steam out of beating Pacquiao. It’s probably enough to move him up a bit, anyway. Resume-wise, he’s had about the toughest strength of schedule in boxing over the last couple years. I’m still always a little amazed at how much one loss, to Antonio Margarito (who this year was busted with loaded gloves and may have been cheating against Cotto too), has affected Cotto’s career. Besides the lingering questions about whether the beating Cotto suffered left him a spent force, how much higher on this list might Cotto be if he’d beaten Margarito? Mosley’s so high on my list and others in large measure because of the Margarito win.
6. Juan Manuel Marquez, lightweight. When Marquez knocked out Juan Diaz in February, I thought it looked (and said so) like a last great stand by a fighter who was getting chased down by Father Time. The loss to Mayweather made it look like Father Time had caught Marquez and thrown the shackles on him. I’d had him at #2 before that loss, and if you’re going by the “how they look” test, I could see dropping Marquez further. But, again, I go by resume, and I can’t fault Marquez too much for losing to a man three divisions above where he last fought (assuming Mayweather was a junior middleweight that night, as he refused a day-of weigh-in by HBO) and five divisions above the last weight where weight wasn’t an inhibiting factor for him. Ultimately, Marquez is very vulnerable to being dropped further now down my list if other fighters below him look good in quality wins, and likewise he’s very vulnerable to being dropped further by the increasing chances of him losing his next fights because of how much he it appears he’s crossed that point in the hill you don’t come back from.
[Of note: This makes seven straight fighters at the top of my list who have spent time recently as welterweights. That's kind of incredible. Marquez is clearly no welterweight, but throw in Ricky Hatton, Oscar De La Hoya and Margarito as other pound-for-pound caliber fighters who have recently spent time at welter, and we're talking about a pretty remarkable period around the weight class, historically. And it hasn't even come close to tapping its potential list of fights.]
7. Ivan Calderon, junior flyweight. Like Marquez, Calderon just has the feel of a fighter who’s now on the other side of the hill. He has struggled in what, four of his last six fights? Those four fights, against Hugo Cazares and Rodel Mayol, came against naturally larger opponents who were quality fighters, but one of the reasons Calderon is in anyone’s top 10 is because he was so dominant against everyone he fought. He looks a step slower and his lack of power has caught up with him as a result. That means I put him where I put Marquez: more vulnerable to being passed by fighters beneath him, either because he loses a fight sooner rather than later or because those beneath him look better in wins than Calderon does in his.
by tim-starks on October 22, 2009
It’s been two months since my last update of the list of the best fighters in the world, regardless of weight, and some pound-for-pound players have been in action during that time. What makes sense on updating these things? After a change? Every month? Dunno, but I haven’t figured out how to post a picture yet on the new blog platform, so just know that my pound-for-pound list mascot, Rene Descartes (not Rod Stewart) is available to you via hyperlink.
The biggest issues to deal with are the Floyd Mayweather-Juan Manuel Marquez bout from September, and where to place four fighters whose resumes are considerable but whose best days appear to be well behind them. As usual, here’s my lengthy diatribe on how I compose my pound-for-pound lists. As usual, I encourage you to post your own list upon your completion of the reading of mine below.
1. Manny Pacquiao, welterweight. I know for some there is a debate about whether to replace Pacquiao with Mayweather, but it wasn’t a debate for me. I place a heavy emphasis on resume, particularly more recent fights, with “how a fighter looks to me in the ring” meaning a good deal less because it’s far more theoretical and much less empirical. Typically, I focus on the last two years. In that regard, Pacquiao’s wins are more impressive. He beat a diminished and disinterested Marco Antonio Barrera in October of 2007 at junior lightweight; narrowly defeated a very nearly at his best version of Juan Manuel Marquez in March of 2008 at junior lightweight; scored a dominant win over a quality if not overly talented lightweight, David Diaz, in July of 2008; demolished a faded and weight-drained but significantly bigger Oscar De La Hoya at welterweight; and demolished a possibly diminished Ricky Hatton this year, fighting at Hatton’s ideal junior welterweight. Over the same period, Mayweather has a decisive and destructive but competitive 2007 win over a blown-up welterweight but prime version of Hatton; and a comprehensive September win at welterweight over a very blown-up, past-his-prime Marquez. In his last three fights, just for bonus points, Pacquiao also passes the “looks pretty freaking incredible in the ring to me” test, moving up in weight and looking better each fight after the other. So, Pacquiao is clearly #1. That could change after Nov. 14 if he loses when he steps up against a welterweight with a lot more in his tank than De La Hoya could offer last year, Miguel Cotto. I think it’s quite clear cut that Pacquiao should be the #1 man right now, though. And if he beats Cotto, somebody’d have to do something pretty ridiculous for me to consider removing Pacquiao from the #1 slot.
2. Floyd Mayweather, welterweight. I thought of putting Mayweather lower, because the “recent fights” resume of some of the fighters beneath him is superior. But his career resume is awfully good, even if the best wins come in 2002 and prior, and he definitely looks like one of the handful of best fighters on the planet, even after his long layoff. He doesn’t get his #1 spot back just because he had it before retiring in 2008. He was already in danger of losing it on my list to Pacquiao even then, since Mayweather’s inactivity was hurting him in my books and since Pacquiao was doing so much good resume-building work. And I don’t buy this “he was pound-for-pound king before he retired, and he hasn’t lost since” line. How many years of inactivity before you take him off the list? What if he retires in 2010 and then doesn’t fight again until 2015? He isn’t automatically pound-for-pound king again, is he? Nope, he has to fight for that to take it back. As of now, it doesn’t sound like he’s thinking of taking the kind of fights that would get him back to the #1 spot — he says he’s “not going to wait” for the winner of Pacquiao-Cotto, and he’s not interested in getting into the ring with Shane Mosley “yet,” and the only name anyone who works with him has thrown out there is Saul Alvarez, a 19-year-old prospect whom a win over would prove nothing, nothing at all. As of now, Mayweather’s best chance of moving back into his old home is a Pacquiao loss, but even that doesn’t guarantee it for reasons I’ll get to in just a little bit.
3. Shane Mosley, welterweight. If Mosley was more active in 2009, even against moderate competition, I think he’d have a very strong argument for deserving the #2 slot. His win over Antonio Margarito in January was one of the year’s most impressive performances, but he won’t fight again until this coming January, assuming that Andre Berto fight gets finalized, like, ever. (The way things are going right now, it may not.) Depending on how things shake out between now and then, a win over Berto could give him consideration for the #1 slot. It’s one of the more disappointing stories of 2009 that Mosley hasn’t been able to get into the ring with anyone of note, be it Pacquiao, Cotto, Mayweather or even Joshua freakin’ Clottey coming off a loss. It’s a combination of him looking too good, other people offering higher pay at lower risk and HBO jerking him around for no reason at all.
4. Paul Williams, middleweight. Williams moves up one slot only because light heavyweight Bernard Hopkins, my previous #4, falls out of the rankings since I have a rule about one year of inactivity. Hopkins fights again in December, so he’ll move back onto the list at a very high spot when and if he wins that tune-up fight against Enrique Ornelas, but Williams might have been due to pass him anyway. He’d had a really gangbusters fight slotted for December himself, against Kelly Pavlik, that, had he won it, would have been good enough to move Williams into my top two. But Pavlik has pulled out of that date once again, leaving Williams looking for a replacement opponent who almost certainly won’t bring the same credentials or cache to the table. Sergio Martinez is probably the most attractive available foe, and beating him would give Williams a chance to move up, but nothing like a win over Pavlik would’ve given him.
5. Miguel Cotto, welterweight. Cotto also moves up one because of Hopkins’ drop. If he beats Pacquiao, though, I think you can make a case for appointing Cotto the pound-for-pound king. It kind of depends. We don’t really know if Pacquiao is a quality welterweight based on what he’s accomplished so far, so if Cotto’s size is a major factor in this hypothetical win — which should be apparent to the eye if it is — it takes a little steam out of beating Pacquiao. It’s probably enough to move him up a bit, anyway. Resume-wise, he’s had about the toughest strength of schedule in boxing over the last couple years. I’m still always a little amazed at how much one loss, to Antonio Margarito (who this year was busted with loaded gloves and may have been cheating against Cotto too), has affected Cotto’s career. Besides the lingering questions about whether the beating Cotto suffered left him a spent force, how much higher on this list might Cotto be if he’d beaten Margarito? Mosley’s so high on my list and others in large measure because of the Margarito win.
6. Juan Manuel Marquez, lightweight. When Marquez knocked out Juan Diaz in February, I thought it looked (and said so) like a last great stand by a fighter who was getting chased down by Father Time. The loss to Mayweather made it look like Father Time had caught Marquez and thrown the shackles on him. I’d had him at #2 before that loss, and if you’re going by the “how they look” test, I could see dropping Marquez further. But, again, I go by resume, and I can’t fault Marquez too much for losing to a man three divisions above where he last fought (assuming Mayweather was a junior middleweight that night, as he refused a day-of weigh-in by HBO) and five divisions above the last weight where weight wasn’t an inhibiting factor for him. Ultimately, Marquez is very vulnerable to being dropped further now down my list if other fighters below him look good in quality wins, and likewise he’s very vulnerable to being dropped further by the increasing chances of him losing his next fights because of how much he it appears he’s crossed that point in the hill you don’t come back from.
[Of note: This makes seven straight fighters at the top of my list who have spent time recently as welterweights. That's kind of incredible. Marquez is clearly no welterweight, but throw in Ricky Hatton, Oscar De La Hoya and Margarito as other pound-for-pound caliber fighters who have recently spent time at welter, and we're talking about a pretty remarkable period around the weight class, historically. And it hasn't even come close to tapping its potential list of fights.]
7. Ivan Calderon, junior flyweight. Like Marquez, Calderon just has the feel of a fighter who’s now on the other side of the hill. He has struggled in what, four of his last six fights? Those four fights, against Hugo Cazares and Rodel Mayol, came against naturally larger opponents who were quality fighters, but one of the reasons Calderon is in anyone’s top 10 is because he was so dominant against everyone he fought. He looks a step slower and his lack of power has caught up with him as a result. That means I put him where I put Marquez: more vulnerable to being passed by fighters beneath him, either because he loses a fight sooner rather than later or because those beneath him look better in wins than Calderon does in his.
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