Comments Thread For: Daily Bread Mailbag: Deontay Wilder's IQ, Roy Jones, Philly versus Detroit, and more

[BoxingUpdates]

Stephen ?Breadman? Edwards, after Deontay Wilder's winning return, answers your questions and assesses your assertions in his latest mailbag
[Click Here To Read More]

[TonyRespectful]

But Breadman it was Crawford himself that said Spence was not Hof worthy.You can't have it both ways.

[ShoulderRoll]

Using 18’ x 18’ ring is going to be awesome. Do it Turki.

Chris Byrd grew up sparring in his basement in a 12’ x 12’ ring which was why he was so slick defensively.

[Echo Falls]

Good mail bag this week. I like short, concise letters with paragraphs.The people that write long essays like they’re in sixth grade does my head in.

Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks.

[Tag, You're Hit]

But Breadman it was Crawford himself that said Spence was not Hof worthy.You can't have it both ways.

Breadman previously said he didn't agree with Bud on that comment. I don't either and I'm fan of Crawford and picked him to beat Spence, though I didn't see that beatdown coming.

[lilacp]

But Breadman it was Crawford himself that said Spence was not Hof worthy.You can't have it both ways.

Boxers talk **** all the time, it's part of the show as well as the mind games they play with each other. Using what Crawford had to say as a yardstick to measure Spence is simply not a very smart way of telling if Spence was elite or not.

Now, it is very possible that Spence's performance against Crawford was connected to his lack of self-care outside the ring and the toll that took out of his body. Nevertheless, a lot of people, including many people in this space, thought that Spence would be able to beat Crawford, and he was definitely seen by the most boxing experts as one of the top pound for pound fighters at the time.

Ignoring the obvious history and work of Spence is just bad revisionist history.

[steeve steel]

Wilder's IQ is probably in the low 60's ... For the rest, how a guy with no jab, poor footwork, no head movement and no boxing IQ can win an Olympic medal is beyond me. But wait! There's an explanation. Found this:

"When discussing Deontay Wilder, some people will say "He is good at boxing because he won an Olympic bronze medal".
I think we need to dissect this a little bit because simply pointing out someone has an Olympic medal, especially a medal prior to 2012, is not the sign of quality you might think.

Prior to 2012, the AIBA had run various qualification systems to the Olympics. At one point there was no qualification system.
Between 1996 and 2008, the AIBA still qualified an awful lot of boxers from regional qualifiers. The big problem with this is the overwhelming amateur boxing talent lay in Europe, Asia and Cuba. So, there were a lot of boxers qualifying from PanAms, Oceania and Africa who were, frankly, not very good. We can see this reflected in the medal tables: between 1996 and 2008 there are very few medalists overall outside of Cuba, Asia and Europe. In fact qualifiers from Oceania in 2004, in 11 weight classes, ended up with a 3-11 record.

The AIBA would eventually shake things up and try to stop boxers who were frankly not all that good getting to the Olympics after 2008, but up until 2008 it's important to put Olmypic qualification in to context: At any one time, half the guys in a weight division were likely from soft qualification zones and almost none were in the Top 20 of their divisions, or anywhere close.

Deontay Wilder qualified by winning the following 3 fights from the Pan Am qualifier (note this was under the old system of single points):

Defeated Deivi Julio (Colombia) 6:5
Defeated Jorge Quinones (Ecuador) +9:9
Defeated Rafael Lima (Brazil) 6:5

None of these guys were particularly good amateurs and none did anything of note outside the PanAm region. In fact the win over Quinones, the fight as you can see was a draw. They did a countback under the old system, and it was still a draw. At this point the judges had to confer and pick a winner, not based on points, but simply on a decision. They decided Wilder should go through.
So, Wilder wins 2 fights by a single point and basically gets something not much better than a coin flip in another bout.
This qualifying took place in March 2008. A few weeks prior to this, this happened when Wilder fought the Number 2 Amateur HW in Russia:

https://********/YceA3kpxB_Y

This can place the competition level Wilder faced in the Pan Ams regions in some context.
Then Wilder gets to the Olympics, and Wilder, to get his bronze medal, has to win 2 fights against 2 regional qualifiers from Africa. Both of whom are pretty poor, and came through a terrible qualification zone.

Abdelaziz Touilbini: From Algeria. Wilder wins a scrappy match. Touilbini retired after the Olympics and did nothing of note as an amateur (he won a default medal the year prior in the African open and lost in the opening round of any big tournaments).

Mohammed Arjaoui: From Morocco. Wilder wins another scrappy fight, but up until the finally 30 seconds, he was 2 points behind. The ref decided to award Wilder 2 additional points, much to the displeasure of the Moroccan corner. This initially makes the fight a draw. There is a countback, Wilder eeks through. Arjaoui in international amateur competion had a 39-34 amateur record.

Wilder still deserves good credit for beating guys who had likely been training longer than he had. But, objectively, he didn't really beat anyone good to get to the games, and certainly not anyone close to the Top 20 in his weight class at the time. He came through a soft qualification zone and barely won his fights.

He fought 2 pretty poor boxers from another weak qualification zone, and barely beat one of them and needed a big ref call to get him through.
He lost on some big one sided fights to any quality amateurs he fought in 2008, including that Russian kid, the Cuban guy he lost to in the final qualifier (both went through, but Wilder lost 12-1) and Russo, the Italian world amateur champion beat him 7-1 in the Olympic Semis without getting out of first gear.

Wilders Olympic bronze is a story of persistence, sure, but also a huge amount of luck too. Much more than you might expect.
People need to put his bronze medal, and what it tells you about his actual skills, in proper context."

Voilą!

[LEONIDAS26@]

Wilder's IQ is probably in the low 60's ... For the rest, how a guy with no jab, poor footwork, no head movement and no boxing IQ can win an Olympic medal is beyond me. But wait! There's an explanation. Found this:

"When discussing Deontay Wilder, some people will say "He is good at boxing because he won an Olympic bronze medal".
I think we need to dissect this a little bit because simply pointing out someone has an Olympic medal, especially a medal prior to 2012, is not the sign of quality you might think.

Prior to 2012, the AIBA had run various qualification systems to the Olympics. At one point there was no qualification system.
Between 1996 and 2008, the AIBA still qualified an awful lot of boxers from regional qualifiers. The big problem with this is the overwhelming amateur boxing talent lay in Europe, Asia and Cuba. So, there were a lot of boxers qualifying from PanAms, Oceania and Africa who were, frankly, not very good. We can see this reflected in the medal tables: between 1996 and 2008 there are very few medalists overall outside of Cuba, Asia and Europe. In fact qualifiers from Oceania in 2004, in 11 weight classes, ended up with a 3-11 record.

The AIBA would eventually shake things up and try to stop boxers who were frankly not all that good getting to the Olympics after 2008, but up until 2008 it's important to put Olmypic qualification in to context: At any one time, half the guys in a weight division were likely from soft qualification zones and almost none were in the Top 20 of their divisions, or anywhere close.

Deontay Wilder qualified by winning the following 3 fights from the Pan Am qualifier (note this was under the old system of single points):

Defeated Deivi Julio (Colombia) 6:5
Defeated Jorge Quinones (Ecuador) +9:9
Defeated Rafael Lima (Brazil) 6:5

None of these guys were particularly good amateurs and none did anything of note outside the PanAm region. In fact the win over Quinones, the fight as you can see was a draw. They did a countback under the old system, and it was still a draw. At this point the judges had to confer and pick a winner, not based on points, but simply on a decision. They decided Wilder should go through.
So, Wilder wins 2 fights by a single point and basically gets something not much better than a coin flip in another bout.
This qualifying took place in March 2008. A few weeks prior to this, this happened when Wilder fought the Number 2 Amateur HW in Russia:

https://********/YceA3kpxB_Y

This can place the competition level Wilder faced in the Pan Ams regions in some context.
Then Wilder gets to the Olympics, and Wilder, to get his bronze medal, has to win 2 fights against 2 regional qualifiers from Africa. Both of whom are pretty poor, and came through a terrible qualification zone.

Abdelaziz Touilbini: From Algeria. Wilder wins a scrappy match. Touilbini retired after the Olympics and did nothing of note as an amateur (he won a default medal the year prior in the African open and lost in the opening round of any big tournaments).

Mohammed Arjaoui: From Morocco. Wilder wins another scrappy fight, but up until the finally 30 seconds, he was 2 points behind. The ref decided to award Wilder 2 additional points, much to the displeasure of the Moroccan corner. This initially makes the fight a draw. There is a countback, Wilder eeks through. Arjaoui in international amateur competion had a 39-34 amateur record.

Wilder still deserves good credit for beating guys who had likely been training longer than he had. But, objectively, he didn't really beat anyone good to get to the games, and certainly not anyone close to the Top 20 in his weight class at the time. He came through a soft qualification zone and barely won his fights.

He fought 2 pretty poor boxers from another weak qualification zone, and barely beat one of them and needed a big ref call to get him through.
He lost on some big one sided fights to any quality amateurs he fought in 2008, including that Russian kid, the Cuban guy he lost to in the final qualifier (both went through, but Wilder lost 12-1) and Russo, the Italian world amateur champion beat him 7-1 in the Olympic Semis without getting out of first gear.

Wilders Olympic bronze is a story of persistence, sure, but also a huge amount of luck too. Much more than you might expect.
People need to put his bronze medal, and what it tells you about his actual skills, in proper context."

Voilą!

THANK YOU SIR! Finally SOMEONE who does actual deep dive research and understands this dynamic concerning Wilder and his dubious climb to the bronze medal and subsequently his pro career.
Not many people take the time to rip apart bogus narratives because they’re either too lazy to do the research or they’re afraid what they might find once doing that research.
Again best comment by a country mile

[CPNUTKnockoutFreshMart]

steeve steel , That was brilliantly researched and well written. Thank you.

[MastaBlasta]

Boxers talk **** all the time, it's part of the show as well as the mind games they play with each other. Using what Crawford had to say as a yardstick to measure Spence is simply not a very smart way of telling if Spence was elite or not.

Now, it is very possible that Spence's performance against Crawford was connected to his lack of self-care outside the ring and the toll that took out of his body. Nevertheless, a lot of people, including many people in this space, thought that Spence would be able to beat Crawford, and he was definitely seen by the most boxing experts as one of the top pound for pound fighters at the time.

Ignoring the obvious history and work of Spence is just bad revisionist history.

Good points! I'm gonna jump in here.

Spence went well over a year in negotiations setting up the Crawford fight the first time, only to have Crawford pull out for mega-bucks on a different bill. Crawford fought, won, then took nearly another year to decide he wanted the Spence fight after all (no shade to Crawford, it was a smart rewarding move financially for him). Then they had a 2nd lengthy negotiation for the fight. While Crawford stayed busy, in training, motivated and active, Spence really did the opposite. He fell off his training regimen, and seemed crestfallen and flat about the whole thing, even as they entered into the 2nd negotiation for the fight that did happen.

Just my opinion, but I think Spence was expecting the fight to probably fall through again. He never seemed to have the expectation and energy he usually had going into a huge fight. His lack of preparation was somewhat obvious, and his conditioning was probably the worst of his career. During this period of time Spence went thru another accident I believe, and also was dealing with the long term effects of his earlier accident, eye injury etc. Coupled with that 1st negotiation falling apart, after it was all but signed, Spence was seriously overweight and out of shape heading into a short camp for the fight (when it came together the 2nd time they only had time for a short camp).

Now none of this is to make an excuse. Spence failed to get in shape and prepare as he always had, and he paid dearly for it. He was completely not himself on fight night, and it was obvious to anyone who had seen him going into every other fight he ever had. The roller-coaster he had been on with injuries, accidents, legal issues, partying, stress, and becoming a very rich young man, coupled with a significant setback (and probably depression) after the initial fight/negotiation crashed all combined to disrupt his preparation on a scale he had never experienced.

Credit to Crawford who trained and prepared and kept it pushing as before. But the wheels had come off for Spence. That was NOT the same fighter he had always been. He tried to work through it, but we all saw the results. Credit to Spence, he didn't whine or make excuses. Those were very tough, dark days for him. There is no question though that Spence was/is elite. Those questioning his legacy are dimwits who never boxed or achieved anything great. Life sometimes throws serious curveballs and we don't always respond as well as we'd like. We ALL missed seeing Spence at his best for that fight (the biggest of his career unfortunately). Not because he didn't want it, but things got way out of bounds on the road to the fight actually happening.

Spence is and was an elite, great fighter and champion.