Name you 10 best middleweight's of all time

[BennyST]

I really don't think there was a whole lot of difference between Hopkins' era and Hagler's era.

Hagler had the likes of Roldan, Hamsho, Sibson, Scypion, and Lee.

Hopkins has the likes of Johnson, Echols, Allen, Lipsey, and Daniels.

Both of them are very comparable, IMO.

Not to mention the fact that they were both largely overlooked and unable to make a real name for themselves until the superstars of their day moved up to fight them.

Hopkins 20 title defenses puts him about Hagler, IMO. But that's just me.

Good thread, BTW ; Middleweights don't get nearly enough credit, IMO.

Hmm, while I sort of agree that they are comparable, the guys you listed as opponents aren't that comparable in my opinion. I think Hagler's competition was quite a bit better than Hopkins, though they were still not truly great or anything.

Hearns and Duran (although old and fat) was still better than Tito and Oscar I believe. Hearns was bigger than Hagler and Duran wasn't so past it that he was shot or anything. He still had some great fights after that beating one of the best and biggest MW's of the time, though he certainly wasn't prime as a middleweight in his mid-thirties after starting at 118.

Hearns certainly though was greater than Tito as a middleweight. Hopkins was noticeably bigger and stronger than Tito who genuinely didn't look like a middleweight next to Hopkins whereas Hearns definitely did.

But, a guy like Johnson wasn't actually very good as a middleweight. He didn't beat anyone or even win a fight of note. He got beat by Sheika, Ottke, Branco, Vanderpool, Sosa, Kawinuka, Harmon and Gonzalez (half of those guys were beaten up bad by Calzonie and are mentioned as supposed bums/nobodies on his resume) all in the years right after Hopkins without beating a top guy until six years later at LHW against Harding.

Lipsey was never really proven either and never fought anyone good. Some semi-ranked contenders was about it. Tyrone Trice was the best guy.

Echolls was a solid, good fighter and a top contender for a number of years afterward too. Beat some ok guys. Allen was also decent and a good contender.

Whereas if you look at a guy like Hamsho he was actually a true number one contender who got both shots by being the top guy from beating everyone, including a lot of great fighters. He beat Bobby Watts (top ranked Philly fighter with a win over Hagler), undefeated Scypion as well as Curtis Parker and champion Alan Minter. After the loss he then beat undefeated Bobby Czyz and Wilfred Benitez, who had only lost to Hearns and Leonard then.

Sibson was also a good fighter with wins over Dwight Davison, Alan Minter, AMano etc to get the shot.

Neither guys opponents were spectacular but I think Hagler's were a little better.

[djtmal]

I really don't understand why people rate Hagler so much higher than Hopkins.

because hagler was the truth...hopkins was nothing but a scaled down lightheavy...

[ßringer]

Hmm, while I sort of agree that they are comparable, the guys you listed as opponents aren't that comparable in my opinion. I think Hagler's competition was quite a bit better than Hopkins, though they were still not truly great or anything.

Hearns and Duran (although old and fat) was still better than Tito and Oscar I believe. Hearns was bigger than Hagler and Duran wasn't so past it that he was shot or anything. He still had some great fights after that beating one of the best and biggest MW's of the time, though he certainly wasn't prime as a middleweight in his mid-thirties after starting at 118.

Hearns certainly though was greater than Tito as a middleweight. Hopkins was noticeably bigger and stronger than Tito who genuinely didn't look like a middleweight next to Hopkins whereas Hearns definitely did.

The guys I listed weren't meant to be comparble to one another ; they were just listed as examples of the types of fighters around during their era that they had to base a career off of.

I would agree that Hearns and Duran are better than Tito and Oscar. But they're both examples of both men having achieved stardom after the superstars moved up in weight to the division. That's why I mentioned them.

Also ; you can't forget about Leonard. A much smaller man that Hagler who beat Hagler at his best fighting weight. You can say Hagler was past prime, and I would agree with that. But we can't act like Ray was still Ray, either.

But, a guy like Johnson wasn't actually very good as a middleweight. He didn't beat anyone or even win a fight of note. He got beat by Sheika, Ottke, Branco, Vanderpool, Sosa, Kawinuka, Harmon and Gonzalez (half of those guys were beaten up bad by Calzonie and are mentioned as supposed bums/nobodies on his resume) all in the years right after Hopkins without beating a top guy until six years later at LHW against Harding.

Lipsey was never really proven either and never fought anyone good. Some semi-ranked contenders was about it. Tyrone Trice was the best guy.

Echolls was a solid, good fighter and a top contender for a number of years afterward too. Beat some ok guys. Allen was also decent and a good contender.

Whereas if you look at a guy like Hamsho he was actually a true number one contender who got both shots by being the top guy from beating everyone, including a lot of great fighters. He beat Bobby Watts (top ranked Philly fighter with a win over Hagler), undefeated Scypion as well as Curtis Parker and champion Alan Minter. After the loss he then beat undefeated Bobby Czyz and Wilfred Benitez, who had only lost to Hearns and Leonard then.

Sibson was also a good fighter with wins over Dwight Davison, Alan Minter, AMano etc to get the shot.

Like I said, the guys I mentioned were not meant to be comparble to one another. Just a list of mostly unsung, yet very worthy and credible opponets.

Neither guys opponents were spectacular but I think Hagler's were a little better.

That was the point I was trying ot make ; about their competition being very similar prior to Tito and Oscar, and Hearns and Duran.

Hagler's may have been slightly better, but I was merely pointing out that it wasn't as spectactular as most people tend to think. Not as spectactular as Monzon's, Robinson, or Greb's, IMO.

[S.G.]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Marcel Cerdan
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Nino Benvenuti
10. Emile Griffith

[djtmal]

please man hopkins name can't be mentioned in the same breath with hagler and the atg's at 160...none of them scaled down two divisions...

[Mr. Philadel]

some older dudes were tellin' me that Ray Robinson was the BEST WW of all-time.....but MOST rate him as the BEST MW of all-time....dam I'm confused!!.....why would some consider Ray as the BEST WW of all-time?!?.....help a brother out!!.....somebody drop some boxing knowledge on me!!

[lparm]

I've never heard much of SRR being the #1 ww probably because his biggest wins and best opponents were at mw. He could be the #1 ww I suppose he is considered the ATG.

[StarshipTrooper]

I've never heard much of SRR being the #1 ww probably because his biggest wins and best opponents were at mw. He could be the #1 ww I suppose he is considered the ATG.

As good as Robinson was at Middleweight, boxing historians consider him far and away better as a Welterweight. Practically untouchable in that weight class.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

01. Ray Robinson
02. Bob Fitzsimmons
03. Marvin Hagler
04. Stanley Ketchel
05. Bernard Hopkins
06. Charley Burley
07. Harry Greb
08. Jake LaMotta
09. Carlos Monzon
10. Tony Zale
11. Panama Joe Gans
12. Marcel Cerdan
13. Les Darcy
14. Mike Gibbons
15. Holman Williams
16. Mickey Walker
17. James Toney
18. Mike McCallum
19. Tommy Burns
20. Freddie Steele
21. Non Periel Jack Dempsey
22. Nino Benvenuti

[suckmebeautiful]

As good as Robinson was at Middleweight, boxing historians consider him far and away better as a Welterweight. Practically untouchable in that weight class.

Poet

thats what i was thinking!Monzon is widely regarded as p4p best middle ever..Though due to his seemingly isolated nationality (argentina) hes often overlooked IMO!